From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 1 13:56:22 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Fri Jan 1 14:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Mixing memory sizes References: Message-ID: In news:hhjg06$bc6$1@news.spamcop.net, Mike Easter typed: > Borgholio wrote: >> I have an Asus P5GC MX/1333 board that can support up to 4gb RAM. >> Problem is, XP Pro 32 bit will only see 3gb of that. So I don't >> want to buy a matched pair of 2gb chips if a whole gig will be >> unused. So my other option is to mix a 2gb chip and a 1gb chip. That'd >> mean >> I don't have any wasted memory. For compatibility's sake they'll be >> the same manufacturer (Kingston) and same speed, just different >> sizes. Would that work? > > The business about which mobo/s require 'matching' ram slots is up to > the mobo > > Asus info from the website conflicts with what it sez in the user > manual > http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=PYvbfOokwxUzJky3 > > Memory > 2 x DIMM, max. 4GB, DDR2 667/533 MHz, non-ECC, un-buffered memory > Dual channel memory architecture > * Refer to www.asus.com or user manual for Memory QVL (Qualify Vendor > List) **When installing total memory of 4GB capacity or more, WindowsR > 32-bit operation system may only recognize less than 3GB. Hence, a > total installed memory of less than 3GB is recommended. > > (end website) > > Manual: P5GC-MX/1333 user?s manual(English) > http://snipurl.com/txp1i page 27 section 1.7 > 1.7 System memory > You may install 256 MB, 512 MB, and 1 GB unbuffered non-ECC DDR2 DIMMs > into the DIMM sockets. > > (notice that doesn't say you can install 2 2G into the sockets) > > For dual-channel configuration, the total size of memory module(s) > installed per channel must be the same (DIMM_A1 = DIMM_B1). > > (page 30) > > DIMM Support: > A - supports one module inserted into either slot, in a Single-channel > memory configuration. > B - supports one pair of modules inserted into the yellow slots as one > pair of Dual?channel memory configuration. > > (one module only; or one pair of modules, not mix and match sizes) > > > The business about how much ram XP can support is more complicated > than to just say 3G. If I had a mobo which would accommodate 2 2G ram > sticks, that's what I would use. But I believe that your board only > accommodates 2G of ram in the form of 2 1G sticks. Good job in responding and also showing that the mfr sites very often contain the information people need and you demo'd how easy it is to find it. It's always best to verify such things ahead of time as you've shown. Twayne -- Cats land on their feet. but Toast lands PB side down; A cat glued to some jelly toast will hover in quantum indecision forever. From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 1 14:30:16 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Fri Jan 1 14:35:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Mixing memory sizes References: Message-ID: In news:hhjm2u$d5f$1@news.spamcop.net, Borgholio typed: > Mike Easter wrote: >> Borgholio wrote: >>> I have an Asus P5GC MX/1333 board that can support up to 4gb RAM. >>> Problem is, XP Pro 32 bit will only see 3gb of that. So I don't >>> want to buy a matched pair of 2gb chips if a whole gig will be >>> unused. So my other option is to mix a 2gb chip and a 1gb chip. That'd >>> mean I don't have any wasted memory. For compatibility's sake >>> they'll be the same manufacturer (Kingston) and same speed, just >>> different sizes. Would that work? >> >> The business about which mobo/s require 'matching' ram slots is up to >> the mobo >> >> Asus info from the website conflicts with what it sez in the user >> manual http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=PYvbfOokwxUzJky3 >> >> Memory >> 2 x DIMM, max. 4GB, DDR2 667/533 MHz, non-ECC, un-buffered memory >> Dual channel memory architecture >> * Refer to www.asus.com or user manual for Memory QVL (Qualify >> Vendor List) **When installing total memory of 4GB capacity or more, >> WindowsR >> 32-bit operation system may only recognize less than 3GB. Hence, a >> total installed memory of less than 3GB is recommended. >> >> (end website) >> >> Manual: P5GC-MX/1333 user’s manual(English) >> http://snipurl.com/txp1i page 27 section 1.7 >> 1.7 System memory >> You may install 256 MB, 512 MB, and 1 GB unbuffered non-ECC DDR2 >> DIMMs into the DIMM sockets. >> >> (notice that doesn't say you can install 2 2G into the sockets) >> >> For dual-channel configuration, the total size of memory module(s) >> installed per channel must be the same (DIMM_A1 = DIMM_B1). >> >> (page 30) >> >> DIMM Support: >> A - supports one module inserted into either slot, in a >> Single-channel memory configuration. >> B - supports one pair of modules inserted into the yellow >> slots as one pair of Dual‐channel memory configuration. >> >> (one module only; or one pair of modules, not mix and match sizes) >> >> >> The business about how much ram XP can support is more complicated >> than to just say 3G. If I had a mobo which would accommodate 2 2G ram >> sticks, that's what I would use. But I believe that your board only >> accommodates 2G of ram in the form of 2 1G sticks. >> >> >> >> > > Seems at this time it's a moot point. My neighbor just up and gave > me two 2gb sticks of PC 6400 ram he had laying around. Motherboard > recognizes all 4 gigs but 640mb are "reserved" for something...so the > total ends up being about 3.4gb which Windows fully recognizes. Great; you came out ahead of the game RAM wise. FWIW, whenever I mess with RAM, I turn a memory tester loose on it after the install seems successful. It can prevent some surprises later on, like in the middle of an important project. memtest86+ version 4 or later (NOT plain "memtest".) seems to be reasonable for this purpose; it's what I use at least. I'll run the test overnight for as many hours as are available to run it. Read the docs before using it. There are multi-core versions, etc. etc. so choose properly. You can get it many places; here's one: http://www.snapfiles.com/get/memtest.html That's an interesting number: Reminds me of the DOS lower memory areas in fact, which was 640. Basically, the unused RAM comes about because XP can only address 4 Gig of addresses total, period, so the number of addresses it can address is limited. Therefore, since the hardware needs to use some address space, that same space can't be used for memory address and thus is taken out of the 4 Gig of RAM installed; that same address space in RAM can now not be addressed. If the PC needs 1 byte of address space to run a widget, then the amount of available addresses for RAM use will be 4 Gig less 1 byte. A silly example of course, but it shows the point a little more clearly I think. The addresses are used for the hardware, video card possibly, BIOS, low level processes, and many others then, is already used and can not be made available to RAM to use. Wikipedia.com had a decent article on this but I can't find it now for some reason. But you can actually have slightly over a Gig of address space taken up by those things, although that much isn't common, but video cards can suck up an awful lot of RAM on you if they don't have onboard RAM. There ways to get around the RAM limitation, which I don't understand and haven't looked into because my pagefile is seldom ever used except under the most gruelling video rendering work so I've no need for it. IIRC it's called PAE but I have no personal knowledge of it or its reliability: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension HTH, Twayne -- Cats land on their feet. but Toast lands PB side down; A cat glued to some jelly toast will hover in quantum indecision forever. From MikeE at ster.invalid Fri Jan 1 15:45:11 2010 From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter) Date: Fri Jan 1 15:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Mixing memory sizes References: Message-ID: Twayne wrote: > Mike Easter >> The business about which mobo/s require 'matching' ram slots is up to >> the mobo >> >> Asus info from the website conflicts with what it sez in the user >> manual > Good job in responding and also showing that the mfr sites very often > contain the information people need and you demo'd how easy it is to > find it. It's always best to verify such things ahead of time as you've > shown. Except that the mfr information was 'wrong' in one way or another in both places. My theory is that at the time the manual was 'printed' (created) there was no such thing as 2G ram (altho' when the mobo was designed, it was designed to accommodate 4Gs in 2 slots); and the manual was never upgraded/revised to reflect the introduction of 2G sticks. Therefore the manual mentions only 1G (and smaller) sticks and makes no mention of being able to use 2 2G sticks. The website was created/configured more recently or revised more recently -- so it takes into account the possibility of 2G sticks which would enable the mobo to use 4G. Then the website goes beyond its ability to say something accurately in a few words when it tries to deal with the XP and tell how many Gs of ram it can handle. -- Mike Easter kibitzer, not SC admin From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 2 22:21:43 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sat Jan 2 22:25:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Mixing memory sizes References: Message-ID: In news:hhlmsn$30n$1@news.spamcop.net, Mike Easter typed: > Twayne wrote: >> Mike Easter > >>> The business about which mobo/s require 'matching' ram slots is up >>> to the mobo >>> >>> Asus info from the website conflicts with what it sez in the user >>> manual > >> Good job in responding and also showing that the mfr sites very often >> contain the information people need and you demo'd how easy it is to >> find it. It's always best to verify such things ahead of time as >> you've shown. > > Except that the mfr information was 'wrong' in one way or another in > both places. > > My theory is that at the time the manual was 'printed' (created) there > was no such thing as 2G ram (altho' when the mobo was designed, it was > designed to accommodate 4Gs in 2 slots); and the manual was never > upgraded/revised to reflect the introduction of 2G sticks. > > Therefore the manual mentions only 1G (and smaller) sticks and makes > no mention of being able to use 2 2G sticks. > > The website was created/configured more recently or revised more > recently -- so it takes into account the possibility of 2G sticks > which would enable the mobo to use 4G. Then the website goes beyond > its ability to say something accurately in a few words when it tries > to deal with the XP and tell how many Gs of ram it can handle. lol yeah, what's new, eh? Technical Writing has always been the least valued production of most any company, I think. Especially with computers. Even one big company (Mitel Inc) I worked for did it wrong. They had a staff of Technical Writers, but all they really did was get the pictures and layout to look pretty, create illustrations from our digital henscratches, and take care of spelling and grammar; the meat all came from us in R&D and they'd use it almost without change. Then in my next company, a small family owned business, I got the honor of being the technical writer besides managing the entire NA test labs. Wasn't too bad though; at least it was a break from gantt charts, project scheduling and all the rest of the jack of all trades duties. I actually enjoyed it, a lot, being able to put my fingers into so many different things. Even got some of my writing used in JATE law, the Japanese telco rules & regs, akin to our FCC here. But we had pretty good technical docs! Cheers, Twayne` Cheers, Twayne -- -- Often you'll find excellent advice on a newsgroup. Before you use that advice though, consider the ramifications of it being wrong or even dangerous; how important IS that to you? ALWAYS verify and confirm ANY advice from a newsgroup! From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 3 19:43:52 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sun Jan 3 19:45:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Mixing memory sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hhp2gg$coa$1@news.spamcop.net... > > lol yeah, what's new, eh? Technical Writing has always been the least > valued production of most any company, I think. Don't get me started on "installation instructions" of ANY kind.....these days almost damn near everything you buy that needs assembled or installed comes with totally retarded "visual" directions without any written text of any kind, except perhaps the part or item # listed near the beginning of the instructions. And if the view or 2-D "slice" image isn't totally clear, even someone with a degree in mechanical engineering is left scratching their heads on what to do next! From mail at sabahattin-gucukoglu.com Mon Jan 4 07:05:29 2010 From: mail at sabahattin-gucukoglu.com (Sabahattin Gucukoglu) Date: Mon Jan 4 07:10:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Need sugestions recommendations References: Message-ID: On 2009-12-01 19:37:08 +0000, "Frog Prince" said: > "Richard W" wrote in message > news:hevl0i$j7o$1@news.spamcop.net... >> Frog Prince wrote: >>>> Spamcop mail? It was claimed that it is unfiltered, at least if you also >>>> view the spambox. >>> >>> Can't use spamcop name effectively for what I'm about. >> >> My understanding is Jeff does do mx hosting for outside domains. Or as I >> do, when I set up my domains I just have the mail forwarded to my SpamCop >> account. T-Bird lets you reply using the address the mail was sent to. > > I may be misunderstanding the process but what I do now is get the inbound > mail forwarded to my main collection account. If I reply using the domain > name the recipient gets an email with a miss match between the domain name > and the sending ISP in this case either Verizon or Charter. > > Due to the IP for VZN and Charter being dynamic every once in a while > I get an IP that is block listed. Some recipient servers block > automatically if there is a difference in account domain name and the > sending IP address. > > I don't mind paying for the service I get but I do need to be able to send > my email uncontaminated by association with my provides IP. I tried a > commercial account and both Charter and VZN are still blocking messages as > are recipients of messages with their IP ranges. It would be one thing is > they were consistent with bounce and error messages but too frequently the > message in and out are bit bucketed. If you want to make ends meet, and don't mind that although Google will be sending out your mail your IP is in the headers (not checked by BLs, that is), just use Google Apps for free or for pay: http://www.google.com/a/ They'll give you submission servers, and the means to publish SPF records for them, so that this sort of nonsense should stop. Although Google's spam filtering is great there is nothing to stop you using SpamCop, if you connect to both using IMAP in fact this should be drag-'n'-drop easy, and there is still the possibility of forwarding non-spam from Google to SC. Reporting from Google will be harder without IMAP, though if you have an email client with attachment forwarding it should be a whole lot better than using the web interface. Cheers, Sabahattin From kenbrody at spamcop.net Mon Jan 4 16:32:31 2010 From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody) Date: Mon Jan 4 16:35:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Bloody new stuff, Vista and Winmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/29/2009 2:01 PM, bar0 wrote: > I got a new Dell M6400 with Vista64. There's no newsreader. Well there > is, sort of. > > If I go to "Help and Support" and search for wetlook express, and then > click on the link that sez what "where is outlook express" I get taken > to a page that has a "click here to open windows mail". It's the only > way I can launch this proggy. Here is some of the source for the page: [...] Does this article help any? http://ask-leo.com/where_is_windows_mail_or_outlook_express_in_windows_7.html I know it says Windows 7 and you're on Vista, but it might help. P.S. For all you geeks out there, Vista is Windows version "6.0", and "Windows 7" is actually Windows version "6.1". I guess that's marketing for you? -- Kenneth Brody From MikeE at ster.invalid Mon Jan 4 17:38:47 2010 From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter) Date: Mon Jan 4 17:40:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Bloody new stuff, Vista and Winmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kenneth Brody wrote: > P.S. For all you geeks out there, Vista is Windows version "6.0", and > "Windows 7" is actually Windows version "6.1". I guess that's marketing > for you? And the first version of Windows Live Mail was version 12 (2007 Nov) and the 2nd version was v. 14 (2009 Jan). MS is very weird. -- Mike Easter From nobody at spamcop.net Mon Jan 4 19:48:27 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Mon Jan 4 19:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Bloody new stuff, Vista and Winmail References: Message-ID: In news:hhtmpf$1gj$1@news.spamcop.net, Kenneth Brody typed: > On 12/29/2009 2:01 PM, bar0 wrote: >> I got a new Dell M6400 with Vista64. There's no newsreader. Well >> there is, sort of. >> >> If I go to "Help and Support" and search for wetlook express, and >> then click on the link that sez what "where is outlook express" I >> get taken to a page that has a "click here to open windows mail". >> It's the only way I can launch this proggy. Here is some of the >> source for the page: [...] > > Does this article help any? > > > http://ask-leo.com/where_is_windows_mail_or_outlook_express_in_windows_7.html > > I know it says Windows 7 and you're on Vista, but it might help. > > > P.S. For all you geeks out there, Vista is Windows version "6.0", and > "Windows 7" is actually Windows version "6.1". I guess that's > marketing for you? SSshhhhhh!! You're supposed to keep that a secret! MS wants you to think it's brand new, without any of the Vista crap. Twayne -- -- Live in the moment; be open to the possibilities that life has to offer. From nobody at spamcop.net Mon Jan 4 19:51:29 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Mon Jan 4 19:55:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Bloody new stuff, Vista and Winmail References: Message-ID: In news:hhtqln$2t7$1@news.spamcop.net, Mike Easter typed: > Kenneth Brody wrote: > >> P.S. For all you geeks out there, Vista is Windows version "6.0", >> and "Windows 7" is actually Windows version "6.1". I guess that's >> marketing for you? > > And the first version of Windows Live Mail was version 12 (2007 Nov) > and the 2nd version was v. 14 (2009 Jan). > > MS is very weird. That's one way to put it; they've folded & mutilate revs in several programs, even including the OS if you recall, and most of their development-ware. Then other companies climbed on board so their versions sounded more "recent" and the race was on. Intelligent ignorance. -- -- Live in the moment; be open to the possibilities that life has to offer. From kenbrody at spamcop.net Tue Jan 5 15:47:06 2010 From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody) Date: Tue Jan 5 15:50:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Bloody new stuff, Vista and Winmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/4/2010 7:51 PM, Twayne wrote: > In news:hhtqln$2t7$1@news.spamcop.net, > Mike Easter typed: >> Kenneth Brody wrote: >> >>> P.S. For all you geeks out there, Vista is Windows version "6.0", >>> and "Windows 7" is actually Windows version "6.1". I guess that's >>> marketing for you? >> >> And the first version of Windows Live Mail was version 12 (2007 Nov) >> and the 2nd version was v. 14 (2009 Jan). >> >> MS is very weird. Well, we can't have any version "13" out there now, can we? > That's one way to put it; they've folded & mutilate revs in several > programs, even including the OS if you recall, and most of their > development-ware. Then other companies climbed on board so their > versions sounded more "recent" and the race was on. Intelligent ignorance. As I recall, MS-Word jumped from version 3 to version 6, because Word Perfect was at version 5 at the time. -- Kenneth Brody From DeathToSpam at crazyhat.net Wed Jan 6 02:31:29 2010 From: DeathToSpam at crazyhat.net (DevilsPGD) Date: Wed Jan 6 02:35:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Bloody new stuff, Vista and Winmail References: Message-ID: In message Kenneth Brody was claimed to have wrote: >On 1/4/2010 7:51 PM, Twayne wrote: >> In news:hhtqln$2t7$1@news.spamcop.net, >> Mike Easter typed: >>> Kenneth Brody wrote: >>> >>>> P.S. For all you geeks out there, Vista is Windows version "6.0", >>>> and "Windows 7" is actually Windows version "6.1". I guess that's >>>> marketing for you? >>> >>> And the first version of Windows Live Mail was version 12 (2007 Nov) >>> and the 2nd version was v. 14 (2009 Jan). >>> >>> MS is very weird. > >Well, we can't have any version "13" out there now, can we? > >> That's one way to put it; they've folded & mutilate revs in several >> programs, even including the OS if you recall, and most of their >> development-ware. Then other companies climbed on board so their >> versions sounded more "recent" and the race was on. Intelligent ignorance. > >As I recall, MS-Word jumped from version 3 to version 6, because Word >Perfect was at version 5 at the time. If you ignore Word 5.1 and 5.5, then you're correct. Word 4 was skipped entirely, 5.1 was Mac only and 5.5 was DOS only, but they did still exist. From kenbrody at spamcop.net Wed Jan 6 09:30:30 2010 From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody) Date: Wed Jan 6 09:35:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Bloody new stuff, Vista and Winmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/6/2010 2:31 AM, DevilsPGD wrote: > In message Kenneth Brody > was claimed to have wrote: > >> On 1/4/2010 7:51 PM, Twayne wrote: [...] >>> That's one way to put it; they've folded& mutilate revs in several >>> programs, even including the OS if you recall, and most of their >>> development-ware. Then other companies climbed on board so their >>> versions sounded more "recent" and the race was on. Intelligent ignorance. >> >> As I recall, MS-Word jumped from version 3 to version 6, because Word >> Perfect was at version 5 at the time. > > If you ignore Word 5.1 and 5.5, then you're correct. > > Word 4 was skipped entirely, 5.1 was Mac only and 5.5 was DOS only, but > they did still exist. Then I suppose my recollection was off, and they went from 3 to 5.x, so as to not be "behind" WordPerfect 5. -- Kenneth Brody From DeathToSpam at crazyhat.net Wed Jan 6 10:53:01 2010 From: DeathToSpam at crazyhat.net (DevilsPGD) Date: Wed Jan 6 10:55:10 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Bloody new stuff, Vista and Winmail References: Message-ID: <0mb9k59afso4c8udltrk70gkop0rbub1ck@4ax.com> In message Kenneth Brody was claimed to have wrote: >On 1/6/2010 2:31 AM, DevilsPGD wrote: >> In message Kenneth Brody >> was claimed to have wrote: >> >>> On 1/4/2010 7:51 PM, Twayne wrote: >[...] >>>> That's one way to put it; they've folded& mutilate revs in several >>>> programs, even including the OS if you recall, and most of their >>>> development-ware. Then other companies climbed on board so their >>>> versions sounded more "recent" and the race was on. Intelligent ignorance. >>> >>> As I recall, MS-Word jumped from version 3 to version 6, because Word >>> Perfect was at version 5 at the time. >> >> If you ignore Word 5.1 and 5.5, then you're correct. >> >> Word 4 was skipped entirely, 5.1 was Mac only and 5.5 was DOS only, but >> they did still exist. > >Then I suppose my recollection was off, and they went from 3 to 5.x, so as >to not be "behind" WordPerfect 5. That, or they were avoiding unlucky number four... My guess is they intentionally wanted to sync version numbers, but honestly, it wouldn't shock me either way. From me at privacy.net Wed Jan 6 14:13:57 2010 From: me at privacy.net (anon) Date: Wed Jan 6 14:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Mixing memory sizes References: Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hhjf2h$b0n$1@news.spamcop.net... > In news:hhjauf$8ph$1@news.spamcop.net, > Borgholio typed: >> I have an Asus P5GC MX/1333 board that can support up to 4gb RAM. Problem >> is, XP Pro 32 bit will only see 3gb of that. So I don't want >> to buy a matched pair of 2gb chips if a whole gig will be unused. >> >> So my other option is to mix a 2gb chip and a 1gb chip. That'd mean I >> don't have any wasted memory. For compatibility's sake they'll be the >> same manufacturer (Kingston) and same speed, just different sizes. Would >> that work? > > You should check your documentation or with the mfr, but in most cases > that's OK to do. I have a 1 Gig and a 512 stick in one machine (a Gateway) > and it works just fine. As long as the other specs match, barring a mfr's > note otherwise, you should have no problem. > I keep weasling the "mfr" in there because I have seen the occasionl > machine that require the same size RAM chip in both slots. If it's not > readily available information, I'd just try it; it's very unlikely to mess > anything up. > Unless you have a strange brand PC, crucial.com can read your RAM slots > and look up the details as a rule: which banks to fill, etc.; they're very > good IME and useful to confirm that my own plans were correct. Or not :-(, > lol. > > Install the larger of the two in the first slot and the smaller one in > the other slot. > There are sometimes rules on which slot/s to use too if you have more > than two. e.g. this Dell here says to use them in even or odd numbered > slots: 0 and 2 (up to 6, and then 1 & 3, etc. Strange, but ... .) if > there are only two slots. This machine has extra sockets because it's > Vista/win7 capable but I had them preinstall XP Pro for me per a special > offer they had. My five year old gateway desktop REQUIRES matched sticks in each pair of slots. > > HTH, > > Twayne > > -- > Cats land on their feet. > but Toast lands PB side down; > A cat glued to some jelly toast will > hover in quantum indecision forever. From me at privacy.net Wed Jan 6 14:28:33 2010 From: me at privacy.net (anon) Date: Wed Jan 6 14:30:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Mixing memory sizes References: Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote in message news:hhrdlp$7b0$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "Twayne" wrote in message > news:hhp2gg$coa$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> lol yeah, what's new, eh? Technical Writing has always been the least >> valued production of most any company, I think. > > Don't get me started on "installation instructions" of ANY kind.....these > days almost damn near everything you buy that needs assembled or installed > comes with totally retarded "visual" directions without any written text > of any kind, except perhaps the part or item # listed near the beginning > of the instructions. And if the view or 2-D "slice" image isn't totally > clear, even someone with a degree in mechanical engineering is left > scratching their heads on what to do next! > Computers are not the only place that 'instructions' are written by someone who may not even be familiar with the field written about. My wife, a quilter, has had many instruction sheet either incomprehensible or just plain wrong - can't assemble the pieces that way (wrong sizes, wrong template, etc.) About forty years ago, a company that manufactured plastic models (airplanes, race cars, full rigged ships) sent me the box of model pieces and the instruction sheets to see if the model could be constructed from them. MANY, many had to be expensively revised. At least they tried to issue correct instructions. From nobody at spamcop.net Wed Jan 6 16:07:09 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Wed Jan 6 16:10:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Mixing memory sizes References: Message-ID: In news:hi2ndn$q7a$1@news.spamcop.net, anon typed: > "Twayne" wrote in message > news:hhjf2h$b0n$1@news.spamcop.net... >> In news:hhjauf$8ph$1@news.spamcop.net, >> Borgholio typed: >>> I have an Asus P5GC MX/1333 board that can support up to 4gb RAM. >>> Problem is, XP Pro 32 bit will only see 3gb of that. So I don't >>> want to buy a matched pair of 2gb chips if a whole gig will be unused. >>> >>> So my other option is to mix a 2gb chip and a 1gb chip. That'd >>> mean I don't have any wasted memory. For compatibility's sake >>> they'll be the same manufacturer (Kingston) and same speed, just >>> different sizes. Would that work? >> >> You should check your documentation or with the mfr, but in most >> cases that's OK to do. I have a 1 Gig and a 512 stick in one machine >> (a Gateway) and it works just fine. As long as the other specs >> match, barring a mfr's note otherwise, you should have no problem. >> I keep weasling the "mfr" in there because I have seen the >> occasionl machine that require the same size RAM chip in both slots. >> If it's not readily available information, I'd just try it; it's >> very unlikely to mess anything up. >> Unless you have a strange brand PC, crucial.com can read your RAM >> slots and look up the details as a rule: which banks to fill, etc.; >> they're very good IME and useful to confirm that my own plans were >> correct. Or not :-(, lol. >> >> Install the larger of the two in the first slot and the smaller >> one in the other slot. >> There are sometimes rules on which slot/s to use too if you have >> more than two. e.g. this Dell here says to use them in even or odd >> numbered slots: 0 and 2 (up to 6, and then 1 & 3, etc. Strange, but >> ... .) if there are only two slots. This machine has extra sockets >> because it's Vista/win7 capable but I had them preinstall XP Pro for >> me per a special offer they had. > > My five year old gateway desktop REQUIRES matched sticks in each pair > of slots. Kind of a moot subject now since he's installed the RAM and says all works fine, all recognizd & used. Twayne > >> >> HTH, >> >> Twayne >> >> -- >> Cats land on their feet. >> but Toast lands PB side down; >> A cat glued to some jelly toast will >> hover in quantum indecision forever. -- -- Live in the moment; be open to the possibilities that life has to offer. From MikeE at ster.invalid Wed Jan 6 18:09:58 2010 From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter) Date: Wed Jan 6 18:10:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Mixing memory sizes References: Message-ID: Twayne wrote: > Kind of a moot subject now since he's installed the RAM and says all > works fine, all recognizd & used. He installed a matched pair totalling 4G, ie 2 x 2G. -- Mike Easter kibitzer, not SC admin From loyal at spamcop.user Wed Jan 6 23:47:06 2010 From: loyal at spamcop.user (AndrewB) Date: Wed Jan 6 23:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] GodMode on Win7/Vista Message-ID: This is pretty cool. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10426627-56.html All sorts of various settings that one can tweak on their system. I'm guessing it is used internally by Microsoft during OS development. Works on my Win7 64 bit. Reports indicate Vista is fine, although some find it unstable on Vista 64. AndrewB From borgholio at storymind.com Thu Jan 7 03:31:35 2010 From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio) Date: Thu Jan 7 03:35:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Mixing memory sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike Easter wrote: > Twayne wrote: > >> Kind of a moot subject now since he's installed the RAM and says all >> works fine, all recognizd & used. > > He installed a matched pair totalling 4G, ie 2 x 2G. > > > Yeah only because my neighbor was kind enough to give them to me as a gift. :) Had I spent money, I would have probably attempted the mixed sizes. From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 7 14:59:53 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Thu Jan 7 15:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Mixing memory sizes References: Message-ID: In news:hi3587$10f$1@news.spamcop.net, Mike Easter typed: > Twayne wrote: > >> Kind of a moot subject now since he's installed the RAM and says all >> works fine, all recognizd & used. > > He installed a matched pair totalling 4G, ie 2 x 2G. Forgot to add that; meant to. Thanks. Twayne -- Live in the moment; be open to the possibilities that life has to offer. From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 7 19:33:01 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Thu Jan 7 19:35:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Cool Hidden Admin Tools Message-ID: Ironically called "God Mode", simply creating a new folder in C:\ called "GodMode.{ED7BA470-8E54-465E-825C-99712043E01C}" , without the quotes, installs an astounding tool to your machine. Just double-click on the directory and every damn command available in Vista (32 bit only) or Win7 pops up in a Control Panel-like box. You could try it with an older version of Windows, doubt it could hurt to try. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10423985-56.html?tag=rtcol;pop Yeah, I know what y'all are saying....oh great, just what Indi needs, access to every single user setting so he can screw up his PC even faster than normal ;-) However, I've broken myself from my old reg tweaking habit after my total system crash 2 weeks ago, I swear! From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 7 20:10:20 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (bar0) Date: Thu Jan 7 20:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote in message news:hi5ufs$a27$1@news.spamcop.net... > Ironically called "God Mode", simply creating a new folder in C:\ called > "GodMode.{ED7BA470-8E54-465E-825C-99712043E01C}" , without the quotes, > installs an astounding tool to your machine. Just double-click on the > directory and every damn command available in Vista (32 bit only) or Win7 > pops up in a Control Panel-like box. You could try it with an older > version of Windows, doubt it could hurt to try. > > http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10423985-56.html?tag=rtcol;pop > > Yeah, I know what y'all are saying....oh great, just what Indi needs, > access to every single user setting so he can screw up his PC even faster > than normal ;-) > > However, I've broken myself from my old reg tweaking habit after my total > system crash 2 weeks ago, I swear! Well you're a twea junky, I'll believe you when I see you taking the 7 steps and attending TA weekly. From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 7 20:42:27 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Thu Jan 7 20:45:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "bar0" wrote in message news:hi60m3$arq$1@news.spamcop.net... >> However, I've broken myself from my old reg tweaking habit after my total >> system crash 2 weeks ago, I swear! > > Well you're a twea junky, I'll believe you when I see you taking the 7 > steps and attending TA weekly. > It's only 7 steps, not 12? Kewl! From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 7 20:44:30 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Thu Jan 7 20:45:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: GodMode on Win7/Vista In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Charles" wrote in message news:Xns9CF950EEFEC8DThisIsMyPost@216.154.195.61... > It wasn't me! It was AndrewB ! > >> This is pretty cool. > > Interesting. I _knew_ that I had seen "The God Mode" somewhere, forgot that is was in AndrewB's post right here.....I spend so much time reading various messageboards......forgive me, AB? From not at home.today Thu Jan 7 21:40:27 2010 From: not at home.today (Ant) Date: Thu Jan 7 21:45:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: GodMode on Win7/Vista References: Message-ID: "AndrewB" wrote: > http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10426627-56.html > > All sorts of various settings that one can tweak on their system. I'm > guessing it is used internally by Microsoft during OS development. It's called "Control Panel" or if you want advanced tweaks: "Microsoft Managemrnt Console" via *.msc snapins - or has Windows become so dumbed down now that these things are no longer easily accessible? The practice of adding GUIDs as file extensions to any filename in order to make something special happen has been around since Win95. Nothing new or exciting here. From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 8 01:06:53 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Richard W) Date: Fri Jan 8 01:10:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Bloody new stuff, Vista and Winmail In-Reply-To: <0mb9k59afso4c8udltrk70gkop0rbub1ck@4ax.com> References: <0mb9k59afso4c8udltrk70gkop0rbub1ck@4ax.com> Message-ID: DevilsPGD wrote: > In message Kenneth Brody > was claimed to have wrote: > >> On 1/6/2010 2:31 AM, DevilsPGD wrote: >>> In message Kenneth Brody >>> was claimed to have wrote: >>> >>>> On 1/4/2010 7:51 PM, Twayne wrote: >> [...] >>>>> That's one way to put it; they've folded& mutilate revs in several >>>>> programs, even including the OS if you recall, and most of their >>>>> development-ware. Then other companies climbed on board so their >>>>> versions sounded more "recent" and the race was on. Intelligent ignorance. >>>> As I recall, MS-Word jumped from version 3 to version 6, because Word >>>> Perfect was at version 5 at the time. >>> If you ignore Word 5.1 and 5.5, then you're correct. >>> >>> Word 4 was skipped entirely, 5.1 was Mac only and 5.5 was DOS only, but >>> they did still exist. >> Then I suppose my recollection was off, and they went from 3 to 5.x, so as >> to not be "behind" WordPerfect 5. > > That, or they were avoiding unlucky number four... My guess is they > intentionally wanted to sync version numbers, but honestly, it wouldn't > shock me either way. You guys are close. There was a Word 4.0 for DOS and Mac. It was WinWord that jumped from 2.0 to 6.0. It was the original DOS version of Word that was released as v.3.0, coincidently while WordPerfect was at v3.1. The release order of Word was 3.0, 3.1, 4.0 for DOS, 4.0 for Mac, Word 1.1a for OS/2, 5.0, 5.5 for DOS, 5.0 for Mac, WinWord 1.0, 1.1, 2.0, 6.0, then 6.0.1 for Mac, Word 95 (7.0), Word 97, Word 98 for Mac, Word 2000, Word 2001 for Mac, Word 2002/XP, Word for Windows 2003, Word 2004 for Mac, then Word for Windows 2007, Word 2008 for Mac, and soon to be released Word 2010. Word 95 and 97 were offered as full versions, upgrade versions and competitive upgrade versions. Beyond 4.0 for Mac, Word hasn't been available as a stand alone product for Macs. Word 2000 and 2002/XP wer only available as part of Office 2000 and Office XP, not stand alones. One could argue MS jumped its Windows versions from 2.0 to 6.0 for marketing reasons to match what WordPerfect was marketing at the time. On the flip side, you could argue they jumped because 3, 4 and 5 existed as DOS versions and they didn't want the confusion of having MS operating system versions with the same version numbers. WordPerfect version numbering was even more confusing. Originally released as 1.0 in 1980, its first DOS version in 1982 was v2.2. While in later years they released 1.x versions for Apple II, McIntosh and NeXt, Atari, Amiga, VAX/VMS and Unix versions were debuted as 4.x. There was then overlap with DOS versions 5.1, 6.0, 5.1+, 6.1 and finally 6.2 in 1997, 5.1 for Windows was released in 1991, followed by 5.2, 6.0, 5.2+ and 6.1. Interestingly, they released a 32 bit v7.0 in 1996, then a v8.0 and 16 bit 7.0 in 1997. WordPerfect v7.0 16 bit was the last standalone version released (preceded by v8.0). Starting with v9.0, WordPerfect was only available as part of Corel Suite. They continued with 10.0, 11.0 and 12.0, then jumpted to X3 and X4 for 13.0 and 14.0. From kenbrody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 8 13:21:05 2010 From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody) Date: Fri Jan 8 13:25:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/7/2010 8:42 PM, Indigo wrote: > > "bar0" wrote in message > news:hi60m3$arq$1@news.spamcop.net... >>> However, I've broken myself from my old reg tweaking habit after my >>> total system crash 2 weeks ago, I swear! >> >> Well you're a twea junky, I'll believe you when I see you taking the 7 >> steps and attending TA weekly. >> > It's only 7 steps, not 12? Kewl! It's 12 (base 5) steps. -- Kenneth Brody From me at privacy.net Sat Jan 9 10:15:13 2010 From: me at privacy.net (anon) Date: Sat Jan 9 10:20:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: screen saver attn mike References: Message-ID: "anon" wrote in message news:hh0rs4$k5b$1@news.spamcop.net... > > > "Mike Easter" wrote in message > news:hh0gum$g9o$1@news.spamcop.net... >> anon wrote: >>> When I open display properties the choice (which screen saver do I >>> want) and the time (wait --- minutes) are grayed out. >> >> There are a lot of hits on the terms - screensaver grayed out - >> >> Most of them refer to the regedit approach in MS kb 555506 >> >> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555506 When one tries to change the >> Screensaver he or she can not change it as the Screensaver drop down >> menu is greyed out. -- This happens if the Screensaver policy is set >> either via group policy or registry. -- To resolve this problem:- >> Start>Run>type Regedit >> >> >> >> -- >> Mike Easter >> kibitzer, not SC admin >> win xp home sp2 Half way there - now the 'choice' is OK but the 'time' is still grayed out. No way to set how long 'till the SC kicks in/ From nobody at devnull.spamcop.net Sat Jan 9 10:50:10 2010 From: nobody at devnull.spamcop.net (Wazoo) Date: Sat Jan 9 10:55:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: screen saver attn mike References: Message-ID: "anon" wrote in message news:hia6i6$s59$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "anon" wrote in message > news:hh0rs4$k5b$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> "Mike Easter" wrote in message >> news:hh0gum$g9o$1@news.spamcop.net... >>> anon wrote: >>>> When I open display properties the choice (which screen saver >>>> do I >>>> want) and the time (wait --- minutes) are grayed out. >>> >>> There are a lot of hits on the terms - screensaver grayed out - >>> >>> Most of them refer to the regedit approach in MS kb 555506 >>> >>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555506 When one tries to change >>> the >>> Screensaver he or she can not change it as the Screensaver drop >>> down >>> menu is greyed out. -- This happens if the Screensaver policy >>> is set >>> either via group policy or registry. -- To resolve this >>> problem:- >>> Start>Run>type Regedit > > win xp home sp2 > > Half way there - now the 'choice' is OK but the 'time' is still > grayed out. > > No way to set how long 'till the SC kicks in/ Exported/edited section from a system here ... have you similar settings? [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Desktop] "ScreenSaverIsSecure"="0" "ScreenSaveTimeOut"="600" "ScreenSaveActive"="1" "SCRNSAVE.EXE"="C:\\WINXPH\\System32\\logon.scr" IsSecure = password required? TimeOut = selected minutes times 60 seconds (above=10 minutes) From me at privacy.net Sat Jan 9 14:50:48 2010 From: me at privacy.net (anon) Date: Sat Jan 9 14:55:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: screen saver attn mike References: Message-ID: "Wazoo" wrote in message news:hia8je$sqi$1@news.spamcop.net... > "anon" wrote in message > news:hia6i6$s59$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> "anon" wrote in message >> news:hh0rs4$k5b$1@news.spamcop.net... >>> >>> "Mike Easter" wrote in message >>> news:hh0gum$g9o$1@news.spamcop.net... >>>> anon wrote: >>>>> When I open display properties the choice (which screen saver do I >>>>> want) and the time (wait --- minutes) are grayed out. >>>> >>>> There are a lot of hits on the terms - screensaver grayed out - >>>> >>>> Most of them refer to the regedit approach in MS kb 555506 >>>> >>>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555506 When one tries to change the >>>> Screensaver he or she can not change it as the Screensaver drop down >>>> menu is greyed out. -- This happens if the Screensaver policy is set >>>> either via group policy or registry. -- To resolve this problem:- >>>> Start>Run>type Regedit >> >> win xp home sp2 >> >> Half way there - now the 'choice' is OK but the 'time' is still grayed >> out. >> >> No way to set how long 'till the SC kicks in/ > > Exported/edited section from a system here ... have you similar settings? > > [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Desktop] > > "ScreenSaverIsSecure"="0" > "ScreenSaveTimeOut"="600" > "ScreenSaveActive"="1" > "SCRNSAVE.EXE"="C:\\WINXPH\\System32\\logon.scr" mine says C:\WINDOWS\system32\ssflwbox.scr I have chosen the flower box. > > IsSecure = password required? mine says 0 > TimeOut = selected minutes times 60 seconds (above=10 minutes) > > Sounds like they are all OK. Still have time grayed out. From nobody at spamcop.net Mon Jan 11 19:17:56 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Mon Jan 11 19:20:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Evan Platt" wrote in message news:t5dnk51r768nctj3li41gka1v0lkf80q2k@4ax.com... > On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:21:05 -0500, Kenneth Brody > wrote: > >>It's 12 (base 5) steps. > > There are 10 types of people: Those who understand binary and those > who don't. Even though I was a math "wiz" in school, I never quite "got" different base systems....some kinda mental block I had.....weird.....guess my brain was built to only work in base 10 (what base are fractions?) From DeathToSpam at crazyhat.net Mon Jan 11 21:35:39 2010 From: DeathToSpam at crazyhat.net (DevilsPGD) Date: Mon Jan 11 21:40:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: Message-ID: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> In message "Indigo" was claimed to have wrote: >(what base are fractions?) How long is a string? Fractions are in whatever base you want, although normally base 10. From kenbrody at spamcop.net Tue Jan 12 12:30:50 2010 From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody) Date: Tue Jan 12 12:35:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: On 1/11/2010 9:35 PM, DevilsPGD wrote: > In message "Indigo" > was claimed to have wrote: > >> (what base are fractions?) > > How long is a string? > > Fractions are in whatever base you want, although normally base 10. Fortunately, everything is in base 10, when expressed within itself. -- Kenneth Brody From nobody at spamcop.net Tue Jan 12 12:45:08 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Tue Jan 12 12:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: "DevilsPGD" wrote in message news:82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com... > In message "Indigo" > was claimed to have wrote: > >>(what base are fractions?) > > How long is a string? Metric or Engrish units? From nobody at spamcop.net Tue Jan 12 12:49:12 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Tue Jan 12 12:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message news:hiibk9$s45$1@news.spamcop.net... > Fortunately, everything is in base 10, when expressed within itself. Not sure I parse that correctly......"expressed within itself" meaning for instance if you're doing fractions in 1/16ths.....I have no idea what I'm evening trying to ask....... From kenbrody at spamcop.net Tue Jan 12 16:09:02 2010 From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody) Date: Tue Jan 12 16:10:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/2010 12:49 PM, Indigo wrote: > > "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message > news:hiibk9$s45$1@news.spamcop.net... >> Fortunately, everything is in base 10, when expressed within itself. > > Not sure I parse that correctly......"expressed within itself" meaning > for instance if you're doing fractions in 1/16ths.....I have no idea > what I'm evening trying to ask....... (Reinserting your original text, which was cut somewhere along the line.) > guess my brain was built to only work in base 10 (what base are fractions?) Binary numbers are expressed in base 10(binary). Octal numbers are expressed in base 10(octal). Hexadecimal numbers are expressed in base 10(hex). -- Kenneth Brody From nobody at spamcop.net Tue Jan 12 17:57:26 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Tue Jan 12 18:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message news:hiiode$108$1@news.spamcop.net... > On 1/12/2010 12:49 PM, Indigo wrote: >> >> "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message >> news:hiibk9$s45$1@news.spamcop.net... >>> Fortunately, everything is in base 10, when expressed within itself. >> >> Not sure I parse that correctly......"expressed within itself" meaning >> for instance if you're doing fractions in 1/16ths.....I have no idea >> what I'm evening trying to ask....... > > (Reinserting your original text, which was cut somewhere along the line.) > >> guess my brain was built to only work in base 10 (what base are >> fractions?) > > Binary numbers are expressed in base 10(binary). > Octal numbers are expressed in base 10(octal). > Hexadecimal numbers are expressed in base 10(hex). > Now I'm totally confused! Shouldn't Octal numbers = base 8 and Hexadecimal = base 6? From nobody at spamcop.net Wed Jan 13 14:12:21 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Wed Jan 13 14:15:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: Message-ID: In news:higf3k$6p7$1@news.spamcop.net, Indigo typed: > "Evan Platt" wrote in message > news:t5dnk51r768nctj3li41gka1v0lkf80q2k@4ax.com... >> On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:21:05 -0500, Kenneth Brody >> wrote: >> >>> It's 12 (base 5) steps. >> >> There are 10 types of people: Those who understand binary and those >> who don't. > > Even though I was a math "wiz" in school, I never quite "got" > different base systems....some kinda mental block I > had.....weird.....guess my brain was built to only work in base 10 > (what base are fractions?) As base 16 is, 0, 1, 2, ... A, B, C, D, E, F, 10, 11, etc., base 5 is similar. Base 16 has 16 digits and base 5 will only have 5 digits. Base 10 has ... ten digits! 0 1 2 3 4 5 10 1 12 13 14 15 20 21 22 23 24 25 ... ... 40 41 42 42 45 100 101 102 103 104 105 110 111 112 etc. Fractions are whatever base the numbers came from. You can't mix bases very easily in standard 4-bang math. From blacklist-me at davjam.org Wed Jan 13 16:34:41 2010 From: blacklist-me at davjam.org (David Bolt) Date: Wed Jan 13 16:35:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: Message-ID: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> On Wednesday 13 Jan 2010 19:12, while playing with a tin of spray paint, Twayne painted this mural: > As base 16 is, 0, 1, 2, ... A, B, C, D, E, F, 10, 11, etc., base 5 is > similar. Base 16 has 16 digits and base 5 will only have 5 digits. Base 10 > has ... ten digits! > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 10 1 12 13 14 15 20 21 22 23 24 25 ... > > ... 40 41 42 42 45 100 101 102 103 104 105 110 111 112 etc. That's base 6. For base 5 you'd go 0 1 2 3 4 10 11 12 13 14 ... etc. Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: www.distributed.net OGR-NG @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~1Mkeys/s openSUSE 11.0 32b | | | openSUSE 11.3M0 32b openSUSE 11.0 64b | openSUSE 11.1 64b | openSUSE 11.2 64b | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 11.1 PPC | RISC OS 4.02 | RISC OS 3.11 From nobody at spamcop.net Wed Jan 13 18:58:42 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Wed Jan 13 20:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "David Bolt" wrote in message news:210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org... > On Wednesday 13 Jan 2010 19:12, while playing with a tin of spray paint, > Twayne painted this mural: > >> As base 16 is, 0, 1, 2, ... A, B, C, D, E, F, 10, 11, etc., base 5 is >> similar. Base 16 has 16 digits and base 5 will only have 5 digits. Base >> 10 >> has ... ten digits! >> >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 10 1 12 13 14 15 20 21 22 23 24 25 ... >> >> ... 40 41 42 42 45 100 101 102 103 104 105 110 111 112 etc. > > That's base 6. For base 5 you'd go 0 1 2 3 4 10 11 12 13 14 ... etc. > Thanks for clearing THAT up....Twayne's post had my head spinning ;-) Let's see if I get this right: the number 110 expressed in base 5 would be 10.1? No, that's not right...howzabout 20.2? How'd I do, teach? From DeathToSpam at crazyhat.net Thu Jan 14 00:07:19 2010 From: DeathToSpam at crazyhat.net (DevilsPGD) Date: Thu Jan 14 00:10:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: In message "Indigo" was claimed to have wrote: > >"David Bolt" wrote in message >news:210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org... >> On Wednesday 13 Jan 2010 19:12, while playing with a tin of spray paint, >> Twayne painted this mural: >> >>> As base 16 is, 0, 1, 2, ... A, B, C, D, E, F, 10, 11, etc., base 5 is >>> similar. Base 16 has 16 digits and base 5 will only have 5 digits. Base >>> 10 >>> has ... ten digits! >>> >>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 10 1 12 13 14 15 20 21 22 23 24 25 ... >>> >>> ... 40 41 42 42 45 100 101 102 103 104 105 110 111 112 etc. >> >> That's base 6. For base 5 you'd go 0 1 2 3 4 10 11 12 13 14 ... etc. >> > >Thanks for clearing THAT up....Twayne's post had my head spinning ;-) > >Let's see if I get this right: the number 110 expressed in base 5 would be >10.1? No, that's not right...howzabout 20.2? How'd I do, teach? 110 would be 420 in base 5. From DLipman~nospam~ at Verizon.Net Thu Jan 14 06:46:39 2010 From: DLipman~nospam~ at Verizon.Net (David H. Lipman) Date: Thu Jan 14 06:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: From: "Indigo" | "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message | news:hiiode$108$1@news.spamcop.net... >> On 1/12/2010 12:49 PM, Indigo wrote: >>> "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message >>> news:hiibk9$s45$1@news.spamcop.net... >>>> Fortunately, everything is in base 10, when expressed within itself. >>> Not sure I parse that correctly......"expressed within itself" meaning >>> for instance if you're doing fractions in 1/16ths.....I have no idea >>> what I'm evening trying to ask....... >> (Reinserting your original text, which was cut somewhere along the line.) >>> guess my brain was built to only work in base 10 (what base are >>> fractions?) >> Binary numbers are expressed in base 10(binary). >> Octal numbers are expressed in base 10(octal). >> Hexadecimal numbers are expressed in base 10(hex). | Now I'm totally confused! Shouldn't Octal numbers = base 8 and Hexadecimal = | base 6? Octal - Base 8 Hexadecimal = Base 16 -- Dave http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp From DLipman~nospam~ at Verizon.Net Thu Jan 14 06:48:39 2010 From: DLipman~nospam~ at Verizon.Net (David H. Lipman) Date: Thu Jan 14 06:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: From: "DevilsPGD" | In message "Indigo" | was claimed to have wrote: >>"David Bolt" wrote in message >>news:210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org... >>> On Wednesday 13 Jan 2010 19:12, while playing with a tin of spray paint, >>> Twayne painted this mural: >>>> As base 16 is, 0, 1, 2, ... A, B, C, D, E, F, 10, 11, etc., base 5 is >>>> similar. Base 16 has 16 digits and base 5 will only have 5 digits. Base >>>> 10 >>>> has ... ten digits! >>>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 10 1 12 13 14 15 20 21 22 23 24 25 ... >>>> ... 40 41 42 42 45 100 101 102 103 104 105 110 111 112 etc. >>> That's base 6. For base 5 you'd go 0 1 2 3 4 10 11 12 13 14 ... etc. >>Thanks for clearing THAT up....Twayne's post had my head spinning ;-) >>Let's see if I get this right: the number 110 expressed in base 5 would be >>10.1? No, that's not right...howzabout 20.2? How'd I do, teach? | 110 would be 420 in base 5. He said its "420". :-) -- Dave http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 09:11:05 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Thu Jan 14 09:15:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: In news:210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org, David Bolt typed: > On Wednesday 13 Jan 2010 19:12, while playing with a tin of spray > paint, Twayne painted this mural: > >> As base 16 is, 0, 1, 2, ... A, B, C, D, E, F, 10, 11, etc., base 5 is >> similar. Base 16 has 16 digits and base 5 will only have 5 digits. >> Base 10 has ... ten digits! >> >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 10 1 12 13 14 15 20 21 22 23 24 25 ... >> >> ... 40 41 42 42 45 100 101 102 103 104 105 110 111 112 etc. > > That's base 6. For base 5 you'd go 0 1 2 3 4 10 11 12 13 14 ... etc. > > > > Regards, > David Bolt OOPS! You're right, of course. I typed 1-25, then realized I'd messed up, went back and added 0, thinking I was done. I hate inaccurate posts, and then I go and do it myself! RATS! Thanks David; that was dumb on my part. regards, Twayne From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 09:49:50 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Thu Jan 14 09:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: In news:hin075$qo5$1@news.spamcop.net, David H. Lipman typed: > From: "Indigo" > > >> "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message >> news:hiiode$108$1@news.spamcop.net... >>> On 1/12/2010 12:49 PM, Indigo wrote: > >>>> "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message >>>> news:hiibk9$s45$1@news.spamcop.net... >>>>> Fortunately, everything is in base 10, when expressed within >>>>> itself. > >>>> Not sure I parse that correctly......"expressed within itself" >>>> meaning for instance if you're doing fractions in 1/16ths.....I >>>> have no idea what I'm evening trying to ask....... > >>> (Reinserting your original text, which was cut somewhere along the >>> line.) > >>>> guess my brain was built to only work in base 10 (what base are >>>> fractions?) > >>> Binary numbers are expressed in base 10(binary). >>> Octal numbers are expressed in base 10(octal). >>> Hexadecimal numbers are expressed in base 10(hex). > > >> Now I'm totally confused! Shouldn't Octal numbers = base 8 and >> Hexadecimal = base 6? Hex = base 16. > > > Octal - Base 8 > Hexadecimal = Base 16 Here's a chart that might help you get your head around it: http://www.dewassoc.com/support/msdos/decimal_hexadecimal.htm The point is, if you'll allow me to try explaining again: We use base 10 NUMBERS to express numbers in other bases. For example, for Hex, which has 16(base 10) numbers starting at 0 and going to 15 (base 10), that's more numbers than we have available in Base 10. Therefore, we used the letters A, B, C, D, E, and F to make a total of 16 numbers. FHex = 15 Base 10, E = 14, D = 13, C = 12, B = 11, A = 10. So to count to 15, starting from 0 in Hex, it's: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E and F. After F comes 10(Hex), 1A, 1B, ... thru 1F, then 20(hex) thru 2F, and so on. Here's a decent definition of hexadecimal that's probably more understandable: http://www.birds-eye.net/definition/h/hex-hexadecimal.shtml It might help too to remember that the decimal system is based on powers of ten, octal on powers of 8, binary on powers of 2, etc.. The easiest way to get started IMO is to start with binary. Each position starting from the right hand side is 2 to the power of 0, next digit 1, then 1, etc. e.g. 001B = 1Dec.; 010B = 2Dec; 011B is 3D, etc. Then you add them. 001001 Binary = 9 Decimal: 008001, Starting from the right, 2^1 = 2; The pair of zeroes is nothing, 2^3 = 8. Then, adding 8 +1 = 9 Decimal. Thus, 1001 Binary = 9 Decimal. 1010 = 2^2 + 2 ^ 3 = 8 = 10 Decimal. The other bases work the same way except the exponent becomes that of the system base name. IN Decimal, it's raised to the 10, in Hexadecimal it's raised to the 16th, and so on. It's just that in the other number systems, you have more than 0 or 1 to contend with. Hope that helps a little, Twayne From kenbrody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 12:26:38 2010 From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody) Date: Thu Jan 14 12:30:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Bases other than decimal (was Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools) In-Reply-To: References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: On 1/13/2010 6:58 PM, Indigo wrote: [...] > Let's see if I get this right: the number 110 expressed in base 5 would > be 10.1? No, that's not right...howzabout 20.2? How'd I do, teach? 110 decimal is: 1 * (10^2) + 1 * (10^1) + 0 * (10^0) To get the same thing in base 5: 4 * (5^2) + 2 * (5^1) + 0 * (5^0) Which means 110 decimal is 420 base 5. Or, 110 base 5 is: 1 * (5^2) + 1 * (5^1) + 0 * (5^0) Which means 110 base 5 is 30 decimal. Fractions work the same way. (Can you call them "decimal points" when not working in base 10?) 13.5 decimal is: 1 * (10^1) + 3 * (10^0) + 5 * (10^-1) To represent this in base 2: 1 * (2^3) + 1 * (2^2) + 0 * (2^1) + 1 * (2^0) + 1 * (2^-1) Which means 13.5 decimal is 1101.1 decimal. In hex (base 16): 13 * (16^0) + 8 * (16^-1) Which means 13.5 decimal is D.8 hex. -- Kenneth Brody From kenbrody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 12:27:27 2010 From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody) Date: Thu Jan 14 12:30:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: On 1/14/2010 9:11 AM, Twayne wrote: > In news:210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org, > David Bolt typed: >> On Wednesday 13 Jan 2010 19:12, while playing with a tin of spray >> paint, Twayne painted this mural: >> >>> As base 16 is, 0, 1, 2, ... A, B, C, D, E, F, 10, 11, etc., base 5 is >>> similar. Base 16 has 16 digits and base 5 will only have 5 digits. >>> Base 10 has ... ten digits! >>> >>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 10 1 12 13 14 15 20 21 22 23 24 25 ... >>> >>> ... 40 41 42 42 45 100 101 102 103 104 105 110 111 112 etc. >> >> That's base 6. For base 5 you'd go 0 1 2 3 4 10 11 12 13 14 ... etc. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> David Bolt > > OOPS! You're right, of course. I typed 1-25, then realized I'd messed > up, went back and added 0, thinking I was done. I hate inaccurate posts, > and then I go and do it myself! RATS! Thanks David; that was dumb on my > part. And, of course, in base 6, between 45 and 100 would be 50 through 55. -- Kenneth Brody From kenbrody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 12:30:06 2010 From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody) Date: Thu Jan 14 12:30:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: On 1/14/2010 9:49 AM, Twayne wrote: [..] > The other bases work the same way except the exponent becomes that of > the system base name. IN Decimal, it's raised to the 10, in Hexadecimal > it's raised to the 16th, and so on. It's just that in the other number > systems, you have more than 0 or 1 to contend with. > > Hope that helps a little, Nit: Decimal isn't "raised to the 10[th]", but rather "10 raised to the n'th". And hex isn't "raised to the 16th", but rather "16 raised to the n'th". -- Kenneth Brody From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 12:59:22 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Thu Jan 14 13:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "DevilsPGD" wrote in message news:p28tk5dmdc1f2dhd6nhssvr9r0ar3mrblr@4ax.com... >> >>Let's see if I get this right: the number 110 expressed in base 5 would be >>10.1? No, that's not right...howzabout 20.2? How'd I do, teach? > > 110 would be 420 in base 5. Please show me all the steps involved in the conversion, and assume I'm an 8 yr old kid, i.e. "talk down" to me. I'm totally serious, bases are like a foreign language to me, something else I've always struggled with (I'm very left brained, learning new languages is more of a right brain thing). After 4 yrs of high school Spanish classes I still couldn't speak a complete grammatically correct sentence longer than a few words, although for some reason I could _read_ Spanish well enough to understand it. I've always had the same problem with learning more than basic electronics terms and equations, which is even weirder, because thermal engineering and EE are so similar in their basics (many of the equations involved are nearly identical in form, if not exactly the same). I earned a BS in Physics, which requires gaining a math minor in the process, and a Master's in thermal engineering without much difficulty. Lots of hard work was involved of course, but I "got it" right from the start in an 8th grade physics class. I should modify that statement: understanding _classical_ physics came naturally to me, but when it came to subjects like electromagnetic fields I really struggled. Thermal engineering is pretty much based on classical physics, except when you get to the more bizarre forms of cooling technology at the molecular scale. If anyone can shed light on how this kind of "subject within a subject" learning mental block is formed or created in the human brain I'd love to hear it, it's bugged me all me life! From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 13:26:14 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Thu Jan 14 13:30:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Bases other than decimal (was Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools) In-Reply-To: References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message news:hink4d$3vj$1@news.spamcop.net... > On 1/13/2010 6:58 PM, Indigo wrote: > [...] >> Let's see if I get this right: the number 110 expressed in base 5 would >> be 10.1? No, that's not right...howzabout 20.2? How'd I do, teach? Guess I should have read the rest of the thread before responding to DevilPGD's post first ;-) See a couple comments below. > > 110 decimal is: > > 1 * (10^2) > + 1 * (10^1) > + 0 * (10^0) > > To get the same thing in base 5: > > 4 * (5^2) > + 2 * (5^1) > + 0 * (5^0) > > Which means 110 decimal is 420 base 5. > > Ok, think I'm starting to get it. The first character in a 3 character number (n = 3) is expressed using the base with n-1 as the exponent, the second character n-2, and so on. In other words, you express the base 10 number 100 in base 5 by calculating how many "5's E^2" it takes to equal 100, which = 100/25 = 4. But let's make it harder: say the number was 113 instead of 110: the first two terms remain the same, but the remaining "3" is expressed as....3/5, or 0.6? So 113 base 5 is 420.6? > > 13.5 decimal is: > > 1 * (10^1) > + 3 * (10^0) > + 5 * (10^-1) > > To represent this in base 2: > > 1 * (2^3) > + 1 * (2^2) > + 0 * (2^1) > + 1 * (2^0) > + 1 * (2^-1) > > Which means 13.5 decimal is 1101.1 decimal. Whoops, looks like I missed something -- 13.5 decimal converted to base 2 starts out with n as the first exponent, not n-1. Is that the "rule" of bases, where if it's a whole number you start with the exponent n-1, but if it's not you start with n? > > In hex (base 16): > > 13 * (16^0) > + 8 * (16^-1) > > Which means 13.5 decimal is D.8 hex. > Reh-rho.....another monkey wrench thrown into the process....why the introduction of letters now, as in the "D"? And this time you started out with an exponent of 0.....I'm afraid I'm lost again..... From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 13:32:43 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Thu Jan 14 13:35:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hin8lt$vjq$1@news.spamcop.net... > > OOPS! You're right, of course. I typed 1-25, then realized I'd messed up, > went back and added 0, thinking I was done. Heh. Reminds me of an argument you hear every ten years, i.e. Is 12/31/2010 the end of the decade or is it 12/31/2009? A lot of folks fail to remember that you start counting at 0, not 1, so 0-9 is 10 years, or a decade, not 1-10. From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 13:42:43 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Thu Jan 14 13:45:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hinaui$lp$1@news.spamcop.net... > > Here's a chart that might help you get your head around it: > http://www.dewassoc.com/support/msdos/decimal_hexadecimal.htm Aha! That explains the mysterious introduction of letters into the hexidecimal system I wrote about in another response. Who the hell invented this "code" of conversions anyway? The inventors of the first computing system? Ignoring the abacus, of course ;-) From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 13:49:16 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Thu Jan 14 13:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hinaui$lp$1@news.spamcop.net... > Here's a decent definition of hexadecimal that's probably more > understandable: > http://www.birds-eye.net/definition/h/hex-hexadecimal.shtml And if I would have actually opened *that* link before replying I wouldn't have needed to ask who invented hex -- it was IBM, kinda sorta what I guessed, but a lot later (1963) than I expected. What base did earlier computers use? IIRC, the first "computers" were actually analog devices of sorts, so perhaps a new base system wasn't needed until the invention of IC's? (if that's the appropriate term, what I mean is silicone chip based computing devices) From joegill at removethis Thu Jan 14 14:48:53 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Thu Jan 14 14:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: BASEicly this thread has drifted.... How about a new thread starting? From not at home.today Thu Jan 14 16:25:38 2010 From: not at home.today (Ant) Date: Thu Jan 14 16:30:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote: > And if I would have actually opened *that* link before replying I wouldn't > have needed to ask who invented hex -- it was IBM, kinda sorta what I > guessed, but a lot later (1963) than I expected. What base did earlier > computers use? IIRC, the first "computers" were actually analog devices of > sorts, so perhaps a new base system wasn't needed until the invention of > IC's? (if that's the appropriate term, what I mean is silicone chip based > computing devices) Any particular base would depend on accumulator or register size and I think in the early days they just used binary for arbitrary sequences of bits. You'll notice that with the introduction of microprocessors registers became standardised at 8 or 16 bits wide so it was useful to invent new number bases (octal: 8 and hex: 16) to represent values that could be stored. To visualise how different bases work think about the decimal system and how you count in it. There are only ten symbols (0 to 9) yet we can count beyond nine by using 1 and appending a 0 to represent ten. When you go one beyond 19 it becomes two tens and no units, i.e. 20. Then to go past 99 you use a 1 for one hundred, a 0 for the tens and a 0 for the units, i.e. 100. Exactly the same procedure for other bases. In octal we have only the symbols 0 to 7, so eight (decimal) must be 10 in octal. Don't think of it as "ten", but "one zero"; i.e. one eight (the base) and zero units. For base 16 (hex) we don't have enough symbols so must use letters to represent digits beyond 9 (A to F). So what is '10' hex? Answer: it's the number after 'F' (15 decimal). The '1' is one sixteen and the '0' is zero units. From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 17:03:39 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Thu Jan 14 17:05:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "Charles" wrote in message news:Xns9D0095947A3CBThisIsMyPost@216.154.195.61... > It wasn't me! It was "Indigo" ! > >> Heh. Reminds me of an argument you hear every ten years, i.e. Is >> 12/31/2010 the end of the decade or is it 12/31/2009? A lot of folks >> fail to remember that you start counting at 0, not 1, so 0-9 is 10 >> years, or a decade, not 1-10. > > You start counting years with 1, silly. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_zero Astronomers and scientists don't...... From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 17:12:42 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Thu Jan 14 17:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: "Ant" wrote in message news:hio26h$8uf$1@news.spamcop.net... Thanks Ant -- for me, that was the best and simplest tutorial of how bases work, meaning you wrote the "explain bases to an 8 year old kid" kind of post I was asking for originally. No offense to everyone else who chimed in, of course.....when I said I didn't understand bases, it's quite clear from my various responses that I was telling the truth ;-) From MikeE at ster.invalid Thu Jan 14 17:42:08 2010 From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter) Date: Thu Jan 14 17:45:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: Indigo wrote: > Heh. Reminds me of an argument you hear every ten years, i.e. Is > 12/31/2010 the end of the decade or is it 12/31/2009? A lot of folks > fail to remember that you start counting at 0, not 1, so 0-9 is 10 > years, or a decade, not 1-10. Except that (the word) 'decade' only means a period of ten years, any 10 years starting with any number. And/But.. The situation is that when decades have names like the twenties, then the decade is defined as those years whose number starts with 2. However, there is a severe naming problem for a couple of other decades 'similar to' the twenties and thirties. We are 'forced' to use names like the noughts or aughts -- which would be from '00-'09, the 'decade' we just left (when compared to such as twenties). And if you think the ought/naughts are a naming problem, what about the 10-19? It doesn't seem like it should be 'teens' to me, since almost a third of the years aren't even teens, much less 'ten-sies' or 'one-sies'. I think that if you spoke Esperanto, you could use 'dekkies' - but Esperanto has turned out to be a dead language even before it came alive. And, of course, similarly, a century is any 100 years, so you can start your numbering wherever you choose to. The anno domini dude chose to start numbering with 1 back in the 6th century when he was working on a few Easter dates and didn't want to give his Easter year numbers the numbering scheme of an anti-Christian tyrant whose year numbering was in charge/vogue at the time. He didn't realize his little Lordly scheme was going to be taken up so seriously by clerics centuries later on and that his numbering scheme was going to be forced onto all kinds of non-Christian people so that we could all be using the same calendar -- which wasn't even the Julian calendar he was using back in the 6th, since the Gregorian one didn't come along until later. -- Mike Easter From MikeE at ster.invalid Thu Jan 14 18:41:08 2010 From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter) Date: Thu Jan 14 18:45:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: Indigo wrote: > > "Charles" >> You start counting years with 1, silly. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_zero > > Astronomers and scientists don't...... Well... ... I'm a big fan of ISO-8601 for standardizing date formats which iso follows Gregorian. When you start dealing with the iso date 0000 and earlier, everyone has to get on the same page. The iso year zero is (actually) 1 BCE. That is, when iso goes from 0001 to 0000 it is actually jumping back to 1 BCE instead of how it looks. Similarly, (or worse) the astronomical year calendars are even messier. They use Gregorian back to the 16th century CE (or AD if you prefer), then they switch to Julian for the early pre-1582 AD/CE years so that can do a zero which corresponds to 1 BCE again. -- Mike Easter From nobody at spamcop.net Thu Jan 14 18:56:58 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Thu Jan 14 19:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "Mike Easter" wrote in message news:hioa2l$bkv$1@news.spamcop.net... > Indigo wrote: >> >> "Charles" > >>> You start counting years with 1, silly. >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_zero >> >> Astronomers and scientists don't...... > > Well... > > ... I'm a big fan of ISO-8601 for standardizing date formats which iso > follows Gregorian. When you start dealing with the iso date 0000 and > earlier, everyone has to get on the same page. The iso year zero is > (actually) 1 BCE. That is, when iso goes from 0001 to 0000 it is actually > jumping back to 1 BCE instead of how it looks. > > Similarly, (or worse) the astronomical year calendars are even messier. > They use Gregorian back to the 16th century CE (or AD if you prefer), then > they switch to Julian for the early pre-1582 AD/CE years so that can do a > zero which corresponds to 1 BCE again. > Yeah, I know. I scoured that Wiki page for something to throw back in Charle's face ;-) From DeathToSpam at crazyhat.net Fri Jan 15 01:53:51 2010 From: DeathToSpam at crazyhat.net (DevilsPGD) Date: Fri Jan 15 01:55:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: In message Charles was claimed to have wrote: >It wasn't me! It was "Indigo" ! > >> Heh. Reminds me of an argument you hear every ten years, i.e. Is >> 12/31/2010 the end of the decade or is it 12/31/2009? A lot of folks >> fail to remember that you start counting at 0, not 1, so 0-9 is 10 >> years, or a decade, not 1-10. > >You start counting years with 1, silly. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_zero Our calendars tend to start with one, but when we think about age, we start with zero. A new-born baby might be three days old, not one year and four days, so "start counting years with 1" is overly simplistic. Further complicating things, while starting with "1" would arguably define a decade as 2001 through 2010, common use differs. For example, if I talked about "the last decade of Bob's life" and Bob died in 2005, it would be fairly obvious that I'm talking about 1995-2005 despite not lining up with a calendar decade. Similarly, "the 90s" are very clearly 1990 through 1999. So while the "first decade" might well be 1 through 10, that doesn't directly define what whether "last decade" means 2000 through 2009 or 2001 through 2010. I would argue that common use should prevail, if only for simplicity in communication. When more specific dates are required, actual dates can be used instead. From MikeE at ster.invalid Fri Jan 15 11:14:55 2010 From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter) Date: Fri Jan 15 11:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: Charles wrote: > DevilsPGD > >> I would argue that common use should prevail, if >> only for simplicity in communication > > That's a tricky one. Somewhere you do need to draw a line! "Real good" is > common use, too. I would call that a 'language' issue. When you are in a one-on-one conversation, you should speak in a language appropriate for both. Such as, don't use foreign phrases or colloquialisms which your correspondent doesn't understand or would find either offensive or in poor taste. In many conversational environments, real good works. In some others, it wouldn't. The same applies to some types of 'jargon' - which term seems to be used pejoratively as if 'unintelligibly specialized' instead of 'technical'. Likewise there is the issue of ethnic terms or physiognomy or 'feature' jibes or banter which some find in poor taste while others wonder why some people are so sensitive or thin-skinned. ..which brings up the issue of not-one-on-one but group, where the language used/chosen has to consider all of the different members of the group. Complicated stuff that language business. It would seem to require an excessive amount of thinking/ considering/ weighing/ before one opens one's mouth sometimes. -- Mike Easter From kenbrody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 15 12:43:10 2010 From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody) Date: Fri Jan 15 12:45:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Bases other than decimal (was Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools) In-Reply-To: References: <210591916.MMh6RI2rZI@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: On 1/14/2010 1:26 PM, Indigo wrote: > > "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message > news:hink4d$3vj$1@news.spamcop.net... >> On 1/13/2010 6:58 PM, Indigo wrote: >> [...] >>> Let's see if I get this right: the number 110 expressed in base 5 would >>> be 10.1? No, that's not right...howzabout 20.2? How'd I do, teach? > > > Guess I should have read the rest of the thread before responding to > DevilPGD's post first ;-) See a couple comments below. No problem. [...] > Ok, think I'm starting to get it. The first character in a 3 character > number (n = 3) is expressed using the base with n-1 as the exponent, the Simplify things... When dealing with whole numbers, start with the right-most digit, and move left. The right-most digit is in units of (n^0). Then, moving left, the next one is in units of (n^1). Then (n^2), (n^3), (n^4), and so on. So, in decimal, the digits represent (moving right-to-left) units of 1's, 10's, 100's, 1000's, and so on. In octal (base 8), the digits represent (in decimal values) units of 1's, 8's, 64's, 512's, and so on. In hexadecimal (base 16), the digits represent (once again, in decimal values), units of 1's, 16's, 256's, 4096's, and so on. [...] >> 13.5 decimal is: >> >> 1 * (10^1) >> + 3 * (10^0) >> + 5 * (10^-1) >> >> To represent this in base 2: >> >> 1 * (2^3) >> + 1 * (2^2) >> + 0 * (2^1) >> + 1 * (2^0) >> + 1 * (2^-1) >> >> Which means 13.5 decimal is 1101.1 decimal. > > > Whoops, looks like I missed something -- 13.5 decimal converted to base > 2 starts out with n as the first exponent, not n-1. Is that the "rule" > of bases, where if it's a whole number you start with the exponent n-1, > but if it's not you start with n? Start at the "decimal" place. Everything to the left of it (the integer part), obeys the rules above, starting with the (n^0) place immediately to the left of the "decimal" point. Simply follow the same pattern/rule, and the digits to the right of the "decimal" point represent, moving right-to-left, units of (n^-1), (n^-2), (n^-3), and so on. So, in decimal, they represent 1/10th, 1/100th, 1/1000th, and so on. In binary, they would represent (in decimal units), 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, and so on. >> >> In hex (base 16): >> >> 13 * (16^0) >> + 8 * (16^-1) >> >> Which means 13.5 decimal is D.8 hex. > > Reh-rho.....another monkey wrench thrown into the process....why the > introduction of letters now, as in the "D"? And this time you started > out with an exponent of 0.....I'm afraid I'm lost again..... As you saw elsethread, hexadecimal requires 16 digits. Since we only have 10 digits in out "normal" base 10 world, 6 additional digits were required, and whoever came up with it decided that the letters A through F would suffice, and would not require "inventing" new symbols. -- Kenneth Brody From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 15 15:09:23 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Fri Jan 15 15:10:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: In news:hinkas$3vj$3@news.spamcop.net, Kenneth Brody typed: > On 1/14/2010 9:49 AM, Twayne wrote: > [..] >> The other bases work the same way except the exponent becomes that of >> the system base name. IN Decimal, it's raised to the 10, in >> Hexadecimal it's raised to the 16th, and so on. It's just that in >> the other number systems, you have more than 0 or 1 to contend >> with. Hope that helps a little, > > Nit: > > Decimal isn't "raised to the 10[th]", but rather "10 raised to the > n'th". And hex isn't "raised to the 16th", but rather "16 raised to > the n'th". Egads, you're right again! Much as I love math, I think I'll pull my nose back and just continue mentally agreeing with your excellent posts! Poor Indigo must hate me by now. At least I meant well (sob):( Cheers, Twayne` From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 15 15:13:06 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Fri Jan 15 15:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: In news:hinoj3$5fc$1@news.spamcop.net, Indigo typed: > "Twayne" wrote in message > news:hinaui$lp$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> Here's a chart that might help you get your head around it: >> http://www.dewassoc.com/support/msdos/decimal_hexadecimal.htm > > Aha! That explains the mysterious introduction of letters into the > hexidecimal system I wrote about in another response. Who the hell > invented this "code" of conversions anyway? The inventors of the > first computing system? Ignoring the abacus, of course ;-) lol, good question! The following search term at Google seemed to get quite a few good hits: define history hexadecimal number system HTH, Twayne From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 15 15:19:28 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Fri Jan 15 15:20:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: In news:hinovc$5ll$1@news.spamcop.net, Indigo typed: > "Twayne" wrote in message > news:hinaui$lp$1@news.spamcop.net... >> Here's a decent definition of hexadecimal that's probably more >> understandable: >> http://www.birds-eye.net/definition/h/hex-hexadecimal.shtml > > > And if I would have actually opened *that* link before replying I > wouldn't have needed to ask who invented hex -- it was IBM, kinda > sorta what I guessed, but a lot later (1963) than I expected. What > base did earlier computers use? IIRC, the first "computers" were > actually analog devices of sorts, so perhaps a new base system wasn't > needed until the invention of IC's? (if that's the appropriate term, > what I mean is silicone chip based computing devices) Base 16. Coined in the early 1950s to replace earlier sexadecimal, which was too racy and amusing for stuffy IBM, and later adopted by the rest of the industry. Actually, neither term is etymologically pure. If we take binary to be paradigmatic, the most etymologically correct term for base 10, for example, is 'denary', which comes from 'deni' (ten at a time, ten each), a Latin distributive number; the corresponding term for base-16 would be something like 'sendenary'. "Decimal" comes from the combining root of decem, Latin for 10. If wish to create a truly analogous word for base 16, we should start with sedecim, Latin for 16. Ergo, sedecimal is the word that would have been created by a Latin scholar. The 'sexa-' prefix is Latin but incorrect in this context, and 'hexa-' is Greek. The word octal is similarly incorrect; a correct form would be 'octaval' (to go with decimal), or 'octonary' (to go with binary). If anyone ever implements a base-3 computer, computer scientists will be faced with the unprecedented dilemma of a choice between two correct forms; both ternary and trinary have a claim to this throne. HTH, Twayne From not at home.today Fri Jan 15 15:23:55 2010 From: not at home.today (Ant) Date: Fri Jan 15 15:25:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote: > Thanks Ant -- for me, that was the best and simplest tutorial of how bases > work, meaning you wrote the "explain bases to an 8 year old kid" kind of > post I was asking for originally. Great, glad that's sorted! By the way, don't worry about fractional values in bases used in computing. It's not very useful to write 13.5 decimal as D.8 hex because floating point numbers are not stored like that. They are represented as a set of bit fields, one of which will be a whole number where a shift has to be applied to determine the position of the (decimal) point. From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 15 17:39:11 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Richard W) Date: Fri Jan 15 17:40:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] SpamCop reporting site emergency update Message-ID: Sorry for the short/no notice, but this just came across the wire about five minutes before it took effect. An emergency Hot Patch is being applied to the SpamCop Reporting side servers starting at 1430 -0700 hrs (PST). The SpamCop reporting site will be in maintenance mode for up to two hours while this patch is being applied. The reason for the patch is to get the parser to recognize the X-Originating-IP line for a whole bunch of new Hotmail servers. Richard From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 15 19:52:31 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Fri Jan 15 19:55:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hiqi1p$47a$1@news.spamcop.net... > Egads, you're right again! Much as I love math, I think I'll pull my nose > back and just continue mentally agreeing with your excellent posts! Poor > Indigo must hate me by now. At least I meant well (sob):( > > Cheers, > > Twayne` > Don't worry, I've had my fill of this discussion. Thanks to all for their help (even the ones that confused me even more than I was to start with ;-) From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 15 19:54:26 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Fri Jan 15 19:55:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hiqikm$4dt$1@news.spamcop.net... > > Actually, neither term is etymologically pure. If we take binary to be > paradigmatic, the most etymologically correct term for base 10, for > example, is 'denary', which comes from 'deni' (ten at a time, ten each), a > Latin distributive number; the corresponding term for base-16 would be > something like 'sendenary'. "Decimal" comes from the combining root of > decem, Latin for 10. If wish to create a truly analogous word for base 16, > we should start with sedecim, Latin for 16. Ergo, sedecimal is the word > that would have been created by a Latin scholar. The 'sexa-' prefix is > Latin but incorrect in this context, and 'hexa-' is Greek. The word octal > is similarly incorrect; a correct form would be 'octaval' (to go with > decimal), or 'octonary' (to go with binary). If anyone ever implements a > base-3 computer, computer scientists will be faced with the unprecedented > dilemma of a choice between two correct forms; both ternary and trinary > have a claim to this throne. > > > > > HTH, > > > > Twayne > Are you channeling Mike Easter now? ;-) From MikeE at ster.invalid Fri Jan 15 20:13:38 2010 From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter) Date: Fri Jan 15 20:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: Indigo wrote: > Are you channeling Mike Easter now? ;-) Personally I'm quite comfortable with language roots that slosh around Greek and Latin derivatives 'uncontrollably'. Perhaps it is because I never took any Latin as a language; I was just content to learn Greek and Latin roots (sometimes even paying attention to which was which) and to realize that my native language mixed and matched pieces and parts willy nilly however it liked, and that was OK with me. But, y'all still haven't come up with a term for the decade '10-'19 because I don't think I'm happy with the Esperanto dekkies. dek dek uno dek du dek tri dek kvar dek kvin dek ses dek sep dek ok dek nau All of the popular languages (that I can think of) tend to treat ten eleven and twelve differently than the 'teens' which screws up naming the ten years collectively. And we all know how freestyle collectives can be :-) -- Mike Easter From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 15 20:20:09 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Fri Jan 15 20:25:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools In-Reply-To: References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: "Mike Easter" wrote in message news:hir3s3$a97$1@news.spamcop.net... > > But, y'all still haven't come up with a term for the decade '10-'19 > because I don't think I'm happy with the Esperanto dekkies. I'm ok with calling them the "tensies" for now.....maybe some defining moment will occur in the next 9 years that will lend itself to a different name, like the Roaring 20's.......oops, that's a bad example....it uses the number of the decade....hopefully it won't end up as the "terrible tens"! From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 15 21:57:59 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Ellen) Date: Fri Jan 15 22:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? Message-ID: This is the oddest problem -- it cropped up for the first time a week or so ago but only happened once or twice; now suddenly it is happening nearly 100% of the time ... Only happens in a browser; happens in both firefox and chrome; website is irrelevant. Description; I bring up a website, try to enter data in an input box, or scroll, or click on anything in the browser window or in the link bar ribbon, etc and the mouse simply does nothing. I usually get maybe one click on a website or in the link bar before the freeze. Does not affect Thunderbird, IM, IRC, or any app. If I click on the desktop and then go back into the browser window then I can click a link or an enter button *but* to do another click action I usually have to first click on empty space on the desktop. This is driving me nuts I updated firefox - no improvement I reinstalled chrome - no improvement I went back to a restore point from two weeks ago -- no change This happens with a usb MS mouse; it happens with the touchpad I have not installed any new software or upgrades to any software (other than the browser changes as mentioned above) in at least 8 weeks and probably longer Windows XP - serv pack 2 plus newer updates I am completely befuddled. I would google for the problem but I am not even sure what search terms to use ... From joegill at removethis Sat Jan 16 00:56:23 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Sat Jan 16 01:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Ellen" wrote in message news:hir9vo$ce0$1@news.spamcop.net... > This is the oddest problem -- it cropped up for the first time a week or > so ago but only happened once or twice; now suddenly it is happening > nearly 100% of the time ... > > Only happens in a browser; happens in both firefox and chrome; website is > irrelevant. > > Description; > > I bring up a website, try to enter data in an input box, or scroll, or > click on anything in the browser window or in the link bar ribbon, etc and > the mouse simply does nothing. I usually get maybe one click on a website > or in the link bar before the freeze. Does not affect Thunderbird, IM, > IRC, or any app. > > If I click on the desktop and then go back into the browser window then I > can click a link or an enter button *but* to do another click action I > usually have to first click on empty space on the desktop. This is driving > me nuts > > I updated firefox - no improvement > > I reinstalled chrome - no improvement > > I went back to a restore point from two weeks ago -- no change > > This happens with a usb MS mouse; it happens with the touchpad > > I have not installed any new software or upgrades to any software (other > than the browser changes as mentioned above) in at least 8 weeks and > probably longer > > > Windows XP - serv pack 2 plus newer updates > > I am completely befuddled. I would google for the problem but I am not > even sure what search terms to use ... In my experience, it happens when something with a 'higher' priority is running. For example, this happens for me when: A) McAfee is updating... Not all updates, just some of them. The mouse appears to freeze up B) Windows Update is running... Not nessearity updating, just the process of looking for updates. Now when you are saying it is happening 100% of the time... per chance are you shutting down your PC after every use? If so, please leave the PC up, so the update process can completely finish.... From user at domain.invalid Sat Jan 16 01:48:46 2010 From: user at domain.invalid (Farelf) Date: Sat Jan 16 01:50:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Joe Gill wrote: > > > Now when you are saying it is happening 100% of the time... per chance > are you shutting down your PC after every use? If so, please leave the > PC up, so the update process can completely finish.... > > Excellent point - AVG is one that has been implicated in similar. Are you still running that/have it installed? Process list might show something (Ctrl-Alt-Delete -> Process tab, sort by high mem usage or CPU). From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 16 07:48:51 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Ellen) Date: Sat Jan 16 07:50:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > In my experience, it happens when something with a 'higher' priority is > running. > For example, this happens for me when: > A) McAfee is updating... Not all updates, just some of them. The mouse > appears to freeze up > B) Windows Update is running... Not nessearity updating, just the > process of looking for updates. > > Now when you are saying it is happening 100% of the time... per chance > are you shutting down your PC after every use? If so, please leave the > PC up, so the update process can completely finish.... > > no I am not rebooting after every use -- I only reboot when necessary not running mcafee, am running AVG I do not let windows update run automatically What I am saying is that I can sit here for an hour or more (or longer) and have this problem From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 16 07:59:42 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Ellen) Date: Sat Jan 16 08:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Farelf wrote: > Joe Gill wrote: >> > >> >> Now when you are saying it is happening 100% of the time... per chance >> are you shutting down your PC after every use? If so, please leave the >> PC up, so the update process can completely finish.... >> >> > > Excellent point - AVG is one that has been implicated in similar. Are > you still running that/have it installed? Process list might show > something (Ctrl-Alt-Delete -> Process tab, sort by high mem usage or CPU). by memory usage: system 86.7K firefox 63.9K tbird 36.5K explorer 23.6 svchost 20k asghost 9.6 host hpqtra 9.3 pthosttr 9.3 etc the only process showing memory usage is system idle process with 98% mem usage From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 16 13:20:17 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sat Jan 16 13:25:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Ellen" wrote in message news:hiscjj$o33$1@news.spamcop.net... > > What I am saying is that I can sit here for an hour or more (or longer) > and have this problem > Simple question -- you didn't say whether you had tried uninstalling and reinstalling your mouse drivers. MS update might have snuck something past you that messed up your mouse settings. It's a piece of cake to do, just make sure you have the latest/greatest drivers from the mouse mfg's website somewhere on your HD before you uninstall the mouse drivers so you can skip the dreaded "wait while Windows searches online for updated drivers for your device" dialog box, click on the "have disk" box instead and browse to the correct .msi or .exe file. From user at domain.invalid Sat Jan 16 14:33:39 2010 From: user at domain.invalid (Farelf) Date: Sat Jan 16 14:35:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ellen wrote: > > by memory usage: > > system 86.7K > firefox 63.9K > tbird 36.5K > explorer 23.6 > svchost 20k > asghost 9.6 host > hpqtra 9.3 > pthosttr 9.3 > > etc > > the only process showing memory usage is system idle process with 98% > mem usage None of that seems a problem, extraordinarily low in fact, compared to my XPH SP3. 98% is presumably CPU usage, meaning it is 98% idle which is good. Here is some of what I was vaguely recalling about AVG: http://forums.avg.com/us-en/avg-free-forum?sec=thread&act=show&id=38925 http://forums.avg.com/cz-en/avg-free-forum?sec=thread&act=show&id=41015 Seems AVG 9.0.x were causing problems, fixed in AVG 9.0.716 Reading those forums, it doesn't sound like the issues you're having though? From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 16 16:30:27 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sat Jan 16 16:35:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Farelf" wrote in message news:hit4ai$at$1@news.spamcop.net... > Ellen wrote: > >> >> by memory usage: >> >> system 86.7K >> firefox 63.9K >> tbird 36.5K >> explorer 23.6 >> svchost 20k >> asghost 9.6 host >> hpqtra 9.3 >> pthosttr 9.3 >> >> etc >> >> the only process showing memory usage is system idle process with 98% >> mem usage > > None of that seems a problem, extraordinarily low in fact, compared to my > XPH SP3. 98% is presumably CPU usage, meaning it is 98% idle which is > good. I agree...in fact the data for FF looks so low I don't believe it's accurate. Right now, with only one streaming audio window active and three tabs open, FF is taking 365,720 internal memory (KB), 359,060 Private KB, total KB =825,560. One thing I noted over time is that the amount of RAM FF consumes is most directly related to how many add-ons and extensions you have installed an running. I'll run a "RAM Cleaner" now....freed up 571,056KB of RAM, and it looks like FF released about half of the internal memory (down to 186,396Kb), but it's total is still sitting at 822,516KB, no real overall change. That's what I mean about all the excess memory FF grabs for loading the various plug-ins, although FF is only using an avg of 3% of the CPU cycles. Note: I used IARSN's TaskInfo app to gather the data. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 16 16:46:04 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Ellen) Date: Sat Jan 16 16:50:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] UPDATE -- Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Indigo wrote: > > "Ellen" wrote in message > news:hiscjj$o33$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> What I am saying is that I can sit here for an hour or more (or >> longer) and have this problem >> > > Simple question -- you didn't say whether you had tried uninstalling and > reinstalling your mouse drivers. MS update might have snuck something > past you that messed up your mouse settings. It's a piece of cake to do, > just make sure you have the latest/greatest drivers from the mouse mfg's > website somewhere on your HD before you uninstall the mouse drivers so > you can skip the dreaded "wait while Windows searches online for > updated drivers for your device" dialog box, click on the "have disk" > box instead and browse to the correct .msi or .exe file. Yeah I updated the touchpad driver and just unplugged the MS mouse but that made no diff. UPDATE: the problem has vanished -- suddenly and for no reason that I can see. After the various things I tried (mentioned in this post and previous posts) which didn't solve the problem, it has suddenly gone away. The only thing I can figure out is maybe one of the keys on the KB was stuck in some sort of way and somewhere along the line I unstuck it? I saw no indication of a sticky key and that doesn't quite translate into why the problem never showed up in anything other than browser windows and why clicking on the desktop allowed me to then do one click in a browser window .... I guess I should just keep my head down and hope for the best :-) From MikeE at ster.invalid Sat Jan 16 17:03:05 2010 From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter) Date: Sat Jan 16 17:05:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: UPDATE -- Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ellen wrote: > UPDATE: the problem has vanished -- I have some intermittent hardware problems which I wish would vanish. -- Mike Easter From joegill at removethis Sat Jan 16 17:54:42 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Sat Jan 16 17:55:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Ellen" wrote in message news:hiscjj$o33$1@news.spamcop.net... > >> >> >> In my experience, it happens when something with a 'higher' priority is >> running. >> For example, this happens for me when: >> A) McAfee is updating... Not all updates, just some of them. The mouse >> appears to freeze up >> B) Windows Update is running... Not nessearity updating, just the process >> of looking for updates. >> >> Now when you are saying it is happening 100% of the time... per chance >> are you shutting down your PC after every use? If so, please leave the PC >> up, so the update process can completely finish.... >> >> > > no I am not rebooting after every use -- I only reboot when necessary > > not running mcafee, am running AVG > > I do not let windows update run automatically > > What I am saying is that I can sit here for an hour or more (or longer) > and have this problem > > > > > Although you said "I do not let Windows update run automatically"... Do you mean "I don't let Windows update, update automatically" -or- Do you mean "I have completely disabled Windows Update"? From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 16 19:08:46 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sat Jan 16 19:10:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: UPDATE -- Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? References: Message-ID: In news:hitc2s$2vv$1@news.spamcop.net, Ellen typed: > Indigo wrote: >> >> "Ellen" wrote in message >> news:hiscjj$o33$1@news.spamcop.net... >>> >>> What I am saying is that I can sit here for an hour or more (or >>> longer) and have this problem >>> >> >> Simple question -- you didn't say whether you had tried uninstalling >> and reinstalling your mouse drivers. MS update might have snuck >> something past you that messed up your mouse settings. It's a piece >> of cake to do, just make sure you have the latest/greatest drivers >> from the mouse mfg's website somewhere on your HD before you >> uninstall the mouse drivers so you can skip the dreaded "wait while >> Windows searches online for updated drivers for your device" dialog >> box, click on the "have disk" box instead and browse to the correct >> .msi or .exe file. > > Yeah I updated the touchpad driver and just unplugged the MS mouse but > that made no diff. > > > UPDATE: the problem has vanished -- suddenly and for no reason that I > can see. After the various things I tried (mentioned in this post and > previous posts) which didn't solve the problem, it has suddenly gone > away. The only thing I can figure out is maybe one of the keys on the > KB was stuck in some sort of way and somewhere along the line I > unstuck it? I saw no indication of a sticky key and that doesn't > quite translate into why the problem never showed up in anything > other than browser windows and why clicking on the desktop allowed me > to then do one click in a browser window .... I guess I should just > keep my head down and hope for the best :-) How about the most obvious; a mouse switch gone bad/dirty? Have you tried a different mouse? Or if it's USB switch it to a different port? Right now I'm betting on the mouse getting tired switches. I had an old ball-mouse do that to me once but I haven't worn out an optical mouse yet. Knock on wood. Kind of WAGs, but ... next time the problem reappears, take a look at Task Manager's Networking tab, just for grins if you haven't already. It's possible for there to be activity without much cpu being consumed. How about Event Viewer's logs; anything there that might explain it? It seems like it should have thrown an error so maybe there's info still there right now. If not, clear the logs so it'll be easier to search if/when the problem reappears. And the firewall/router logs? OK, I'll quit grabbing at straws now. Twayne From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 16 19:12:15 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sat Jan 16 19:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Cool Hidden Admin Tools References: <82nnk5d0bappuu0knb0p5i9c94ej9nrav8@4ax.com> Message-ID: In news:hir2o1$9sg$1@news.spamcop.net, Indigo typed: > "Twayne" wrote in message > news:hiqikm$4dt$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> Actually, neither term is etymologically pure. If we take binary to >> be paradigmatic, the most etymologically correct term for base 10, >> for example, is 'denary', which comes from 'deni' (ten at a time, >> ten each), a Latin distributive number; the corresponding term for >> base-16 would be something like 'sendenary'. "Decimal" comes from >> the combining root of decem, Latin for 10. If wish to create a truly >> analogous word for base 16, we should start with sedecim, Latin for >> 16. Ergo, sedecimal is the word that would have been created by a >> Latin scholar. The 'sexa-' prefix is Latin but incorrect in this >> context, and 'hexa-' is Greek. The word octal is similarly >> incorrect; a correct form would be 'octaval' (to go with decimal), >> or 'octonary' (to go with binary). If anyone ever implements a >> base-3 computer, computer scientists will be faced with the >> unprecedented dilemma of a choice between two correct forms; both >> ternary and trinary have a claim to this throne. HTH, >> >> >> >> Twayne >> > > Are you channeling Mike Easter now? ;-) lol, no, not really; I just forgot the attributions where I got the plagairized data from. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 16 21:24:02 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Ellen) Date: Sat Jan 16 21:25:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Joe Gill wrote: > > > Although you said "I do not let Windows update run automatically"... > Do you mean "I don't let Windows update, update automatically" > -or- > Do you mean "I have completely disabled Windows Update"? manually go to the windows update site and decide what updates to install From nobody at spamcop.net Mon Jan 18 00:42:57 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Richard W) Date: Mon Jan 18 00:45:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: UPDATE -- Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ellen wrote: > -- suddenly and for no reason that I Finally took the tinfoil hat off. Those thing wreak havoc with RF ;-) I've had the same thing happen and it'll go on for a week or two, then vanish. I can only explain it as a bad update, a corrupt driver or something consuming resources and stealing from the mouse. Richard From me at privacy.net Tue Jan 19 23:19:54 2010 From: me at privacy.net (Frog Prince) Date: Tue Jan 19 23:25:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] VISTA CRASH Message-ID: My DIL's sister just delivered her Acer Aspire 5100-5455 lap top. It's Vista Home OEM The unit goes through the crash repair mode and I get an error message c000021a [FATAL SYSTEM ERROR] 0x00000000\(oxc0000001 0x0010037c) I need a boot disk so I can access the data on her HDD (lots of pictures of my grand kids) Any help/recommendations would be appreciated. FP brother_rabbit @ hotmail.com From MikeE at ster.invalid Tue Jan 19 23:50:35 2010 From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter) Date: Tue Jan 19 23:55:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Frog Prince wrote: > My DIL's sister just delivered her Acer Aspire 5100-5455 lap top. > > It's Vista Home OEM > > The unit goes through the crash repair mode and I get an error message > c000021a [FATAL SYSTEM ERROR] > 0x00000000\(oxc0000001 0x0010037c) > > I need a boot disk so I can access the data on her HDD (lots of pictures of > my grand kids) > > Any help/recommendations would be appreciated. I think any of the linux live CDs can recognize the NTFS partition these days. That route is free of any pirate ware. Personally I kinda like the TinyXP and Hirens boot CD approach for windows stuff, but you have to deal with the dark side there, including that you have to get the iso/s from places that are like piratebay and similar. So, you would take a live CD which has some utilities on it and boot and rescue the data onto a thumbdrive. Then presumably you would use the built in recovery which replaces the original install with an image. I assume that's the way Acer does it, since that is so popular. I haven't looked at the site and the manual. I know nothing about tweaking my way into repairing a vista. -- Mike Easter From joegill at removethis Wed Jan 20 03:09:19 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Wed Jan 20 03:10:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Frog Prince" wrote in message news:hj60a2$vvg$1@news.spamcop.net... > My DIL's sister just delivered her Acer Aspire 5100-5455 lap top. > > It's Vista Home OEM > > The unit goes through the crash repair mode and I get an error message > c000021a [FATAL SYSTEM ERROR] > 0x00000000\(oxc0000001 0x0010037c) > > I need a boot disk so I can access the data on her HDD (lots of pictures > of my grand kids) > > Any help/recommendations would be appreciated. > > > FP > brother_rabbit @ hotmail.com > > > See discusssion at http://www.msghelp.net/showthread.php?tid=66202 From kenbrody at spamcop.net Wed Jan 20 10:04:00 2010 From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody) Date: Wed Jan 20 10:05:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/19/2010 11:19 PM, Frog Prince wrote: > My DIL's sister just delivered her Acer Aspire 5100-5455 lap top. > > It's Vista Home OEM > > The unit goes through the crash repair mode and I get an error message > c000021a [FATAL SYSTEM ERROR] > 0x00000000\(oxc0000001 0x0010037c) > > I need a boot disk so I can access the data on her HDD (lots of pictures of > my grand kids) > > Any help/recommendations would be appreciated. If you have Vista install disks, you may be able to boot to the "recovery console". (Press F8 during boot to get to the menu, and select the recovery console if available.) From there, I have found that "chkdsk c: /r" will cure many boot problems. If that isn't available, or doesn't work, I like BartPE. http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/ Note that you don't get an ISO, and you don't have to worry about "pirateware", as noted by Mike Easter elsethread. Rather, this will create one from your existing XP system. (I don't know if it builds from Vista or not. However, once booted, BartPE will access Vista filesystems just fine.) -- Kenneth Brody From me at privacy.net Wed Jan 20 10:04:45 2010 From: me at privacy.net (Frog Prince) Date: Wed Jan 20 10:10:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH References: Message-ID: "Joe Gill" wrote in message news:hj6dnv$588$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "Frog Prince" wrote in message > news:hj60a2$vvg$1@news.spamcop.net... >> My DIL's sister just delivered her Acer Aspire 5100-5455 lap top. >> >> It's Vista Home OEM >> >> The unit goes through the crash repair mode and I get an error message >> c000021a [FATAL SYSTEM ERROR] >> 0x00000000\(oxc0000001 0x0010037c) >> >> I need a boot disk so I can access the data on her HDD (lots of pictures >> of my grand kids) >> >> Any help/recommendations would be appreciated. >> >> >> FP >> brother_rabbit @ hotmail.com >> >> >> > > See discusssion at > http://www.msghelp.net/showthread.php?tid=66202 Thanks all. I pulled the HDD (SATA) and mounted it in an external quick change box I have that uses a USB interface. I'm pulling all the mission critical data to a back up HDD and will proceed from there. FB From nobody at spamcop.net Wed Jan 20 13:17:24 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Wed Jan 20 13:20:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message news:hj760s$d5r$1@news.spamcop.net... > > If you have Vista install disks, you may be able to boot to the "recovery > console". (Press F8 during boot to get to the menu, and select the > recovery console if available.) > > From there, I have found that "chkdsk c: /r" will cure many boot problems. > Problem is that option doesn't always work -- in recovery mode enough stuff gets loaded that you can't run chkdsk except on a reboot (schedule chkdsk to run on next startup). In my recent crash that required a full reformat/reinstall of Vista, I was easily able to get into the Recovery Console, but some corrupt file (MBR or system volume table) was stopping the PC from shutting down in an orderly manner. The only way to get out of the "stuck" state my PC was in was to turn it off, so the cmd to run chkdsk on startup never got "saved" properly, therefore it never ran. Curses to the Vista developers for completely removing any option for booting straight to a cmd prompt! From nobody at spamcop.net Wed Jan 20 13:38:03 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Wed Jan 20 13:40:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Warning about SnagIt V9 Message-ID: After my recent system restore I couldn't find the install files for my ancient version of SnagIt (V6), so I downloaded and installed the latest and greatest trial version to see how it worked. I didn't like it, the newer version had become bloatware that had many more (and uneccessary) utilities and functions that the older, simpler, screen capture version contained. Then about a week ago explorer.exe started randomly crashing, and SnagIt would load, but immediately crash. I was looking through the "Problems and Reports" section yesterday and found a connection: Problem signature Problem Event Name: APPCRASH Application Name: Explorer.EXE Application Version: 6.0.6000.16771 Application Timestamp: 4907deda Fault Module Name: SHLWAPI.dll <================== Fault Module Version: 6.0.6000.16386 Fault Module Timestamp: 4549bdb9 Exception Code: c0000005 Exception Offset: 0001e0e5 OS Version: 6.0.6000.2.0.0.768.3 Locale ID: 1033 Additional Information 1: de84 Additional Information 2: 5a81db4e3a19305b0e09cf974073d4e4 Additional Information 3: 6c80 Additional Information 4: b260f2d3b4a71e7115a8fd0750df3e95 Problem signature Problem Event Name: APPCRASH Application Name: snagiteditor.exe Application Version: 9.1.3.19 Application Timestamp: 4ad739ab Fault Module Name: SHLWAPI.dll <================== Same faulting module! Fault Module Version: 6.0.6000.16386 Fault Module Timestamp: 4549bdb9 Exception Code: c0000005 Exception Offset: 0001e0e5 OS Version: 6.0.6000.2.0.0.768.3 Locale ID: 1033 Additional Information 1: 8d13 Additional Information 2: cdca9b1d21d12b77d84f02df48e34311 Additional Information 3: 8d13 Additional Information 4: cdca9b1d21d12b77d84f02df48e34311 I tried manually registering SHLWAPI.dll, but got an error message. So I decided to wipe SnagIt V9 from my PC, and boy, was that a nightmare! I normally use RevoUninstaller to remove programs, because it also searches the registry and deletes most (normally all) of the remnants left behind when you use Vista's regular program uninstaller. After running the Revo app, I then ran RegScanner to search for any remaining registry entries for SnagIt, and was blown away by how deeply SnagIt had penetrated the registry, there were dozens of entries that Revo hadn't found, and I had to manually find and delete all of them. What a PITA!! Then I had a "slap my forehead" moment, realizing that SnagIt V6 was still installed on my old PC in the basement. So I booted it up, stuck in a thumbdrive, copied the directory (and some other apps that I had lost), and just now moved the files from the thumbdrive to my HP PC. Since the older SnagIt was a "standalone" app, I didn't have to officially install it, I just double-clicked on the .exe file and Voila! My favorite screencapture app is back in action, and hasn't completely infiltrated my PC. Me happy ;-) P.S. Yeah, I tried using the built-in "Clipper" app, and it sucked in comparison to SnagIt. From nobody at spamcop.net Wed Jan 20 20:44:51 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Wed Jan 20 20:45:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Warning about SnagIt V9 References: Message-ID: Sometimes progress isn't so progressive, is it? I'm even still using a win95 App, the Cardfile program. Except that CardSpace wanted to steal the file association which confused me for a bit, it's still great. I'm much rather have all the info right there together in one place as *I* decide it should be arranged, than spread around a gazillion fields many links deep a la the address book. Cheers, Twayne` In news:hj7iib$h4i$1@news.spamcop.net, Indigo typed: > After my recent system restore I couldn't find the install files for > my ancient version of SnagIt (V6), so I downloaded and installed the > latest and greatest trial version to see how it worked. I didn't like > it, the newer version had become bloatware that had many more (and > uneccessary) utilities and functions that the older, simpler, screen > capture version contained. > Then about a week ago explorer.exe started randomly crashing, and > SnagIt would load, but immediately crash. I was looking through the > "Problems and Reports" section yesterday and found a connection: > > Problem signature > Problem Event Name: APPCRASH > Application Name: Explorer.EXE > Application Version: 6.0.6000.16771 > Application Timestamp: 4907deda > Fault Module Name: SHLWAPI.dll <================== > Fault Module Version: 6.0.6000.16386 > Fault Module Timestamp: 4549bdb9 > Exception Code: c0000005 > Exception Offset: 0001e0e5 > OS Version: 6.0.6000.2.0.0.768.3 > Locale ID: 1033 > Additional Information 1: de84 > Additional Information 2: 5a81db4e3a19305b0e09cf974073d4e4 > Additional Information 3: 6c80 > Additional Information 4: b260f2d3b4a71e7115a8fd0750df3e95 > > Problem signature > Problem Event Name: APPCRASH > Application Name: snagiteditor.exe > Application Version: 9.1.3.19 > Application Timestamp: 4ad739ab > Fault Module Name: SHLWAPI.dll <================== Same faulting > module! Fault Module Version: 6.0.6000.16386 > Fault Module Timestamp: 4549bdb9 > Exception Code: c0000005 > Exception Offset: 0001e0e5 > OS Version: 6.0.6000.2.0.0.768.3 > Locale ID: 1033 > Additional Information 1: 8d13 > Additional Information 2: cdca9b1d21d12b77d84f02df48e34311 > Additional Information 3: 8d13 > Additional Information 4: cdca9b1d21d12b77d84f02df48e34311 > > I tried manually registering SHLWAPI.dll, but got an error message. > So I decided to wipe SnagIt V9 from my PC, and boy, was that a > nightmare! I normally use RevoUninstaller to remove programs, because > it also searches the registry and deletes most (normally all) of the > remnants left behind when you use Vista's regular program > uninstaller. After running the Revo app, I then ran RegScanner to > search for any remaining registry entries for SnagIt, and was blown > away by how deeply SnagIt had penetrated the registry, there were > dozens of entries that Revo hadn't found, and I had to manually find > and delete all of them. What a PITA!! > Then I had a "slap my forehead" moment, realizing that SnagIt V6 was > still installed on my old PC in the basement. So I booted it up, > stuck in a thumbdrive, copied the directory (and some other apps that > I had lost), and just now moved the files from the thumbdrive to my > HP PC. Since the older SnagIt was a "standalone" app, I didn't have > to officially install it, I just double-clicked on the .exe file and > Voila! My favorite screencapture app is back in action, and hasn't > completely infiltrated my PC. Me happy ;-) > P.S. Yeah, I tried using the built-in "Clipper" app, and it sucked in > comparison to SnagIt. From me at privacy.net Thu Jan 21 22:05:48 2010 From: me at privacy.net (Frog Prince) Date: Thu Jan 21 22:10:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH References: Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote in message news:hj7hbk$got$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message > news:hj760s$d5r$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> If you have Vista install disks, you may be able to boot to the "recovery >> console". (Press F8 during boot to get to the menu, and select the >> recovery console if available.) >> >> From there, I have found that "chkdsk c: /r" will cure many boot >> problems. >> > > Problem is that option doesn't always work -- in recovery mode enough > stuff gets loaded that you can't run chkdsk except on a reboot (schedule > chkdsk to run on next startup). In my recent crash that required a full > reformat/reinstall of Vista, I was easily able to get into the Recovery > Console, but some corrupt file (MBR or system volume table) was stopping > the PC from shutting down in an orderly manner. The only way to get out of > the "stuck" state my PC was in was to turn it off, so the cmd to run > chkdsk on startup never got "saved" properly, therefore it never ran. > > Curses to the Vista developers for completely removing any option for > booting straight to a cmd prompt! Played around with this off and on all day. Finally noticed the restore option is trying to reinstall XP when the as shipped version was Vista. Waiting for a response from Acer support on the observation and an explanation. From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 22 16:59:19 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Fri Jan 22 17:00:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Frog Prince" wrote in message news:hjb4qu$nr6$2@news.spamcop.net... > Played around with this off and on all day. Finally noticed the restore > option is trying to reinstall XP when the as shipped version was Vista. > Heh. If I had that option I'd gladly go back to XP! From me at privacy.net Fri Jan 22 17:57:33 2010 From: me at privacy.net (Frog Prince) Date: Fri Jan 22 18:25:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH References: Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote in message news:hjd73m$egh$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "Frog Prince" wrote in message > news:hjb4qu$nr6$2@news.spamcop.net... >> Played around with this off and on all day. Finally noticed the restore >> option is trying to reinstall XP when the as shipped version was Vista. >> > > Heh. If I had that option I'd gladly go back to XP! For some reason it only tries to re-install XP nothing ever comes of the attempt. Based on my experiance with Acer I'm going to play the dumb game to see what sort of real world support I can get before I buy my next lap top. From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 22 20:42:16 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Fri Jan 22 20:45:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH References: Message-ID: In news:hjdbuk$g5e$1@news.spamcop.net, Frog Prince typed: > "Indigo" wrote in message > news:hjd73m$egh$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> "Frog Prince" wrote in message >> news:hjb4qu$nr6$2@news.spamcop.net... >>> Played around with this off and on all day. Finally noticed the >>> restore option is trying to reinstall XP when the as shipped >>> version was Vista. >> >> Heh. If I had that option I'd gladly go back to XP! > > For some reason it only tries to re-install XP nothing ever comes of > the attempt. > > Based on my experiance with Acer I'm going to play the dumb game to > see what sort of real world support I can get before I buy my next > lap top. If it's like the Dell I bought not too long ago, it came with one system preinstalled, and the other only available by using some "extra" discs they sent along. It's a win 7 machine but, disliking Vista pretty strongly, I asked for XP instead. They ripped out some memory and only left 4 Gig, added the win7 discs so I could install it "later", preinstalled XP and sent the XP disks in a package of their own. I wiped the drive & redid the partitions, etc and installed XP again, and was pleased to see that all went smoothly. I'll assume the win 7 install would go as smoothly; obviously it's win 7 ready, and passes the compatabilty scan with the same results I mentioned above, but ... unless I get forced into it, I don't plan to ever install win 7 unless I get too many machines in with it for repairs. I'd just hate to be restarting all the bug fixes etc. all over again. Check with Acer; they were pre-installing XP on Vista machines, so maybe there's still a set of XP disks you could get your hands on. At least they'd know whether it'd work or not, drivers wise, etc.. Cheers, Twayne` From me at privacy.net Fri Jan 22 21:04:11 2010 From: me at privacy.net (Frog Prince) Date: Fri Jan 22 21:05:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH References: Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hjdk5s$iuf$1@news.spamcop.net... > In news:hjdbuk$g5e$1@news.spamcop.net, > Frog Prince typed: >> "Indigo" wrote in message >> news:hjd73m$egh$1@news.spamcop.net... >>> >>> "Frog Prince" wrote in message >>> news:hjb4qu$nr6$2@news.spamcop.net... >>>> Played around with this off and on all day. Finally noticed the >>>> restore option is trying to reinstall XP when the as shipped >>>> version was Vista. >>> >>> Heh. If I had that option I'd gladly go back to XP! >> >> For some reason it only tries to re-install XP nothing ever comes of >> the attempt. >> >> Based on my experiance with Acer I'm going to play the dumb game to >> see what sort of real world support I can get before I buy my next >> lap top. > > If it's like the Dell I bought not too long ago, it came with one system > preinstalled, and the other only available by using some "extra" discs > they sent along. It's a win 7 machine but, disliking Vista pretty > strongly, I asked for XP instead. They ripped out some memory and only > left 4 Gig, added the win7 discs so I could install it "later", > preinstalled XP and sent the XP disks in a package of their own. I wiped > the drive & redid the partitions, etc and installed XP again, and was > pleased to see that all went smoothly. I'll assume the win 7 install would > go as smoothly; obviously it's win 7 ready, and passes the compatabilty > scan with the same results I mentioned above, but ... unless I get forced > into it, I don't plan to ever install win 7 unless I get too many machines > in with it for repairs. I'd just hate to be restarting all the bug fixes > etc. all over again. > Check with Acer; they were pre-installing XP on Vista machines, so maybe > there's still a set of XP disks you could get your hands on. At least > they'd know whether it'd work or not, drivers wise, etc.. Acer is not answering the phones or emails (not joking). Took me almost a week to get them to accept an order for the restore CD. the web site would not accept the order as the S/N was 'not valid'. (it was on the case, under the battery, on the box and on the sales receipt) From loyal at spamcop.user Fri Jan 22 23:20:53 2010 From: loyal at spamcop.user (AndrewB) Date: Fri Jan 22 23:25:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Twayne wrote: ... > unless I get forced into it, I don't plan to ever install win 7 unless I > get too many machines in with it for repairs. I'd just hate to be > restarting all the bug fixes etc. all over again. ... XP is growing long in the tooth and needs to be put to sleep soon. There are at least two vulnerabilities that Microsoft can't or won't fix so far in XP: - an IP stack vulnerability - a kernel vulnerability with 16 bit application support (recently disclosed, but present since NT 3.0 - 17 years!) This list will grow longer in time. Soon companies won't be building software for XP, such as security software packages, tax software, and the like. I've been pretty thrilled with Win 7 64bit on my Lenovo ThinkPad. I'm hoping to score an upgrade version for my desktop first half of this year. AndrewB From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 23 09:39:15 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sat Jan 23 09:40:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH References: Message-ID: In news:hjdlfp$jga$1@news.spamcop.net, Frog Prince typed: > "Twayne" wrote in message > news:hjdk5s$iuf$1@news.spamcop.net... >> In news:hjdbuk$g5e$1@news.spamcop.net, >> Frog Prince typed: >>> "Indigo" wrote in message >>> news:hjd73m$egh$1@news.spamcop.net... >>>> >>>> "Frog Prince" wrote in message >>>> news:hjb4qu$nr6$2@news.spamcop.net... >>>>> Played around with this off and on all day. Finally noticed the >>>>> restore option is trying to reinstall XP when the as shipped >>>>> version was Vista. >>>> >>>> Heh. If I had that option I'd gladly go back to XP! >>> >>> For some reason it only tries to re-install XP nothing ever comes of >>> the attempt. >>> >>> Based on my experiance with Acer I'm going to play the dumb game to >>> see what sort of real world support I can get before I buy my next >>> lap top. >> >> If it's like the Dell I bought not too long ago, it came with one >> system preinstalled, and the other only available by using some >> "extra" discs they sent along. It's a win 7 machine but, disliking >> Vista pretty strongly, I asked for XP instead. They ripped out some >> memory and only left 4 Gig, added the win7 discs so I could install >> it "later", preinstalled XP and sent the XP disks in a package of >> their own. I wiped the drive & redid the partitions, etc and >> installed XP again, and was pleased to see that all went smoothly. >> I'll assume the win 7 install would go as smoothly; obviously it's >> win 7 ready, and passes the compatabilty scan with the same results >> I mentioned above, but ... unless I get forced into it, I don't plan >> to ever install win 7 unless I get too many machines in with it for >> repairs. I'd just hate to be restarting all the bug fixes etc. all >> over again. Check with Acer; they were pre-installing XP on >> Vista machines, so maybe there's still a set of XP disks you could >> get your hands on. At least they'd know whether it'd work or not, >> drivers wise, etc.. > > Acer is not answering the phones or emails (not joking). Took me > almost a week to get them to accept an order for the restore CD. the > web site would not accept the order as the S/N was 'not valid'. (it > was on the case, under the battery, on the box and on the sales > receipt) Not too surprised there. It's been almost a year, but I had a similar experience with them trying to repair an Acer that was bought at Walmart. Long phone queues, black-holed emails, etc.. It actually worked pretty well and as advertised, but support is almost non-existing. Inside wasn't so impressive (had a dead boot disk). You could tell it was pretty much a mess of jury-rigs to meet the low price Walmart was looking for. I finally had to get all the info & software on my own from perusing their site's many confusing routes. But, it WAS there, and was available to download, so ... . IF they refuse to help with problems, I suppose it makes the number of machines with problems look smaller? lol, no idea! I'm dying to see what Gateway is selling to the big boxen now too, since they quit building systems themselves. So far none of the stores around here carry them yet, but we're pretty rural here. Cheers, Twayne` From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 23 09:57:13 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sat Jan 23 10:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH References: Message-ID: In news:hjdtf4$m1p$1@news.spamcop.net, AndrewB typed: > Twayne wrote: > ... >> unless I get forced into it, I don't plan to ever install win 7 >> unless I get too many machines in with it for repairs. I'd just hate >> to be restarting all the bug fixes etc. all over again. > ... > > XP is growing long in the tooth and needs to be put to sleep soon. > There are at least two vulnerabilities that Microsoft can't or won't > fix so far in XP: Yeah, it is a little long in the tooth but it still does everything I need and more. With Support and Updates lasting through 2014, I think I can get a lot of mileage out of it yet. One thing age speaks for is experience and stability. XP is very stable now and I'd hate to start that process all over again for no good reason. > > - an IP stack vulnerability > - a kernel vulnerability with 16 bit application support (recently > disclosed, but present since NT 3.0 - 17 years!) So far I haven't seen anything but hype about win 7 or Vista being any more secure. And of course the installed base is going through the growing problems that come with every new release from MS. I'm hoping I'll be in a position to forget MS within the next few years; I don't purchase or install anything that doesn't also have Linux drivers whenever possible. > > This list will grow longer in time. Actually, if win 7 succeeds, and it may, the list of problems will grow shorter for XP as the concentrations turn to the easier to crack win 7 systems. Same as happened with win98, win95 and even 3.1, although problems were pretty much embryonic in those days. > > Soon companies won't be building software for XP, such as security > software packages, tax software, and the like. But not for a long time yet. Like I said, if I get forced, I'm ready. I don't see it as much of a problem for me while ymmv, and don't think it's worth worrying about until/unless it happens. > > I've been pretty thrilled with Win 7 64bit on my Lenovo ThinkPad. I'm > hoping to score an upgrade version for my desktop first half of this > year. That's great. I've nothing against anyone who uses win 7 or Vista; they fit well for some people. It's like OO.o: If you aren't already entrenched with a room full of peripherals you use almost daily it'll go fine because everything you pick up will be compatible or you wouldn't purchase/install it. But if you are, it's another game in many cases. For me it means two of my apps wouldn't work, one an important one, and one peripheral isn't compatible according to the compatability-check program, so those would be immediate expenses in my case. Happy Computing! Twayne > > > AndrewB From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 24 14:11:53 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sun Jan 24 14:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hjdk5s$iuf$1@news.spamcop.net... > If it's like the Dell I bought not too long ago, it came with one system > preinstalled, and the other only available by using some "extra" discs > they sent along. It's a win 7 machine but, disliking Vista pretty > strongly, I asked for XP instead. They ripped out some memory and only > left 4 Gig, added the win7 discs so I could install it "later", > preinstalled XP and sent the XP disks in a package of their own. I wiped > the drive & redid the partitions, etc and installed XP again, and was > pleased to see that all went smoothly. I'll assume the win 7 install would > go as smoothly; obviously it's win 7 ready, and passes the compatabilty > scan with the same results I mentioned above, but ... unless I get forced > into it, I don't plan to ever install win 7 unless I get too many machines > in with it for repairs. Hasn't MS ceased supporting Win2k? It's only a matter of time before they'll quit supporting XP too, it's expensive to keep up support for 3 OS's. They seem to quit on the 3rd oldest version a couple years after the latest and greatest version is released (Win7 in this case). From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 24 14:23:17 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sun Jan 24 14:25:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hjf1mo$2h4$1@news.spamcop.net... > > Not too surprised there. It's been almost a year, but I had a similar > experience with them trying to repair an Acer that was bought at Walmart. > Long phone queues, black-holed emails, etc.. > It actually worked pretty well and as advertised, but support is almost > non-existing. Inside wasn't so impressive (had a dead boot disk). You > could tell it was pretty much a mess of jury-rigs to meet the low price > Walmart was looking for. I finally had to get all the info & software on > my own from perusing their site's many confusing routes. But, it WAS > there, and was available to download, so ... . Heh. You *really* want to have some fun negotiating a website for updates? Try upgrading your old Canon digicam (A20 powershot in my case) to work with Vista! After I had to re-install Vista on my HP a couple months ago I discovered that I had failed to back up the A20 Twain driver that I had found somewhere online, and sheesh, it took me days of searching to find Vista versions of their ZoombrowserEX software too (originally written for Win98). I ended up finding the correct Twain driver on Cnet.com or someplace like that. The Canon website kept leading me around in circles, never getting me to the proper "starting page", it kept going to the "updates" page, which contained downloads that only worked if you already had a functioning version of ZoombrowserEX on your machine! And the disks that came with the camera were of course rejected by Vista because they were so old and MS didn't provide enough backwards compatibility to accept the software MSI packages. What a PITA....then after all that effort, I realized that all I had to do was pop the Compact Flash disk from the camera into the multi-function card reader on my PC and bypass the USB hookup entirely ;-) From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 24 21:45:54 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sun Jan 24 21:50:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH References: Message-ID: In news:hji61p$4iu$1@news.spamcop.net, Indigo typed: > "Twayne" wrote in message > news:hjdk5s$iuf$1@news.spamcop.net... >> If it's like the Dell I bought not too long ago, it came with one >> system preinstalled, and the other only available by using some >> "extra" discs they sent along. It's a win 7 machine but, disliking >> Vista pretty strongly, I asked for XP instead. They ripped out some >> memory and only left 4 Gig, added the win7 discs so I could install >> it "later", preinstalled XP and sent the XP disks in a package of >> their own. I wiped the drive & redid the partitions, etc and >> installed XP again, and was pleased to see that all went smoothly. >> I'll assume the win 7 install would go as smoothly; obviously it's >> win 7 ready, and passes the compatabilty scan with the same results >> I mentioned above, but ... unless I get forced into it, I don't plan >> to ever install win 7 unless I get too many machines in with it for >> repairs. > > Hasn't MS ceased supporting Win2k? It's only a matter of time before > they'll quit supporting XP too, it's expensive to keep up support for > 3 OS's. They seem to quit on the 3rd oldest version a couple years > after the latest and greatest version is released (Win7 in this case). Supposedly they have let win2k go, true, but even so I still get updates once in awhile on the Dell dual Xeos 2k server machine in back of me. I'm sure if I asked for any support I wouldn't get it. Not that I'd get it with XP either. I look at it this way: If a machine is stable, secure and reliable, then it's still usable. It happened with 98, is happening with XP and probably will continue to happen. The old win98 machine out in the shop is still chugging along just fine and doing an excellent job of what it's been programmed to do, which is simply to let me access my main server so to speak from my shop. Support for SP3 goes until 2014 supposedly, so there's still some support left for XP. But then, who cares, really, at this point? As long as a machine does what one wants reliably and without down time, where's the problem? As far as I'm concerned, Microsoft has priced themselves right out of my market, they have abandoned me in the past and tried to force switching to "better" and newer VB programs for insance, are always looking to force obsoletion and be a single-source and just don't care about their customers any longer. Put more succinctly, support isn't necessarily connected to the usability of an operating system or its hardware. XP is fully functional and is paid for. Today at least. Regards, Twayne` From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 24 21:52:25 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sun Jan 24 21:55:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH References: Message-ID: In news:hji6n5$4pv$1@news.spamcop.net, Indigo typed: > "Twayne" wrote in message > news:hjf1mo$2h4$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> Not too surprised there. It's been almost a year, but I had a similar >> experience with them trying to repair an Acer that was bought at >> Walmart. Long phone queues, black-holed emails, etc.. >> It actually worked pretty well and as advertised, but support is >> almost non-existing. Inside wasn't so impressive (had a dead boot >> disk). You could tell it was pretty much a mess of jury-rigs to meet >> the low price Walmart was looking for. I finally had to get all the >> info & software on my own from perusing their site's many confusing >> routes. But, it WAS there, and was available to download, so ... . > > Heh. You *really* want to have some fun negotiating a website for > updates? Try upgrading your old Canon digicam (A20 powershot in my > case) to work with Vista! After I had to re-install Vista on my HP a > couple months ago I discovered that I had failed to back up the A20 > Twain driver that I had found somewhere online, and sheesh, it took > me days of searching to find Vista versions of their ZoombrowserEX > software too (originally written for Win98). I ended up finding the > correct Twain driver on Cnet.com or someplace like that. > > The Canon website kept leading me around in circles, never getting me > to the proper "starting page", it kept going to the "updates" page, > which contained downloads that only worked if you already had a > functioning version of ZoombrowserEX on your machine! And the disks > that came with the camera were of course rejected by Vista because > they were so old and MS didn't provide enough backwards compatibility > to accept the software MSI packages. What a PITA....then after all > that effort, I realized that all I had to do was pop the Compact > Flash disk from the camera into the multi-function card reader on my > PC and bypass the USB hookup entirely ;-) Ain't that the way? The best answers are always hiding behind that first tree, right on the edge of the forest! I had a Powershot A40 for a long time and loved it til it froze up on me. Good cameras, actually. I still have it stashed away in a drawer in case my newest one gives up. And its requisite ZB rev is there too. Regards, Twayne` From nobody at spamcop.net Mon Jan 25 15:40:03 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Mon Jan 25 15:40:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Oh NOOOOOO!!!! Message-ID: I have absolutely no idea what happened today.....I was planning on ripping a new CD for my massage this afternoon, and when I opened explorer things were normal - I could see the artist name and file length. Then I fired up both Winamp and WMP11, which read the MP3 tags just fine, but then explorer.exe (and rundll32.dll) crashed and restarted. Wwhen I went back to the explorer window where the music files are located, all the tag info was gone! Right clicking on any file and looking at "details" show no info at ALL, and wouldn't let me edit it either. >From googling this seems to be a common Vista problem, but no one seems to have found a way to correct it. Explorer has NEVER acted like this since I've had this machine. I downloaded a couple MP3 taggers to try to solve the problem, no joy. My guess is that something in the registry got changed to make certain file info "hidden", but I have no clue where to start looking or for what term. HELP! From nobody at spamcop.net Mon Jan 25 17:56:47 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (bar0) Date: Mon Jan 25 18:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Oh NOOOOOO!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote in message news:hjkvj2$41p$1@news.spamcop.net... >I have absolutely no idea what happened today.....I was planning on ripping >a new CD for my massage this afternoon, and when I opened explorer things >were normal - I could see the artist name and file length. Then I fired up >both Winamp and WMP11, which read the MP3 tags just fine, but then >explorer.exe (and rundll32.dll) crashed and restarted. Wwhen I went back to >the explorer window where the music files are located, all the tag info was >gone! Right clicking on any file and looking at "details" show no info at >ALL, and wouldn't let me edit it either. > > From googling this seems to be a common Vista problem, but no one seems to > have found a way to correct it. Explorer has NEVER acted like this since > I've had this machine. I downloaded a couple MP3 taggers to try to solve > the problem, no joy. > > My guess is that something in the registry got changed to make certain > file info "hidden", but I have no clue where to start looking or for what > term. HELP! OK , what did you tweak in the past week? From nobody at spamcop.net Mon Jan 25 18:54:04 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Mon Jan 25 18:55:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Oh NOOOOOO!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "bar0" wrote in message news:hjl7jf$6ka$1@news.spamcop.net... > >> >> From googling this seems to be a common Vista problem, but no one seems >> to have found a way to correct it. Explorer has NEVER acted like this >> since I've had this machine. I downloaded a couple MP3 taggers to try to >> solve the problem, no joy. >> >> My guess is that something in the registry got changed to make certain >> file info "hidden", but I have no clue where to start looking or for what >> term. HELP! > > OK , what did you tweak in the past week? NADADAMNTHING! The ONLY thing I did today (or in the last week) was to finish an install of WinAmp, then all these problems started popping up all over the place. I wiped WinAmp from my disk, currently running sfc /scannow (which will likely come up blank), then going to restore to this morning's daily restore point and see if that fixes it. From joegill at removethis Mon Jan 25 21:34:17 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Mon Jan 25 21:35:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Oh NOOOOOO!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote in message news:hjkvj2$41p$1@news.spamcop.net... >I have absolutely no idea what happened today.....I was planning on ripping >a new CD for my massage this afternoon, and when I opened explorer things >were normal - I could see the artist name and file length. Then I fired up >both Winamp and WMP11, which read the MP3 tags just fine, but then >explorer.exe (and rundll32.dll) crashed and restarted. Wwhen I went back to >the explorer window where the music files are located, all the tag info was >gone! Right clicking on any file and looking at "details" show no info at >ALL, and wouldn't let me edit it either. > > From googling this seems to be a common Vista problem, but no one seems to > have found a way to correct it. Explorer has NEVER acted like this since > I've had this machine. I downloaded a couple MP3 taggers to try to solve > the problem, no joy. > > My guess is that something in the registry got changed to make certain > file info "hidden", but I have no clue where to start looking or for what > term. HELP! My suggestions would be this: First, are the tags missing, or the tag 'pane' missing... If it is the tag 'pane'.. then Organize.....Layout........Detail Pane If that fails, then A) Shutdown and restart VISTA... if that does not work.... B) Shutdown, restart in REPAIR MODE, and run CHKDSK with the /F option From nobody at spamcop.net Tue Jan 26 11:58:58 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Tue Jan 26 12:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Oh NOOOOOO!!!! References: Message-ID: In news:hjkvj2$41p$1@news.spamcop.net, Indigo typed: > I have absolutely no idea what happened today.....I was planning on > ripping a new CD for my massage this afternoon, and when I opened > explorer things were normal - I could see the artist name and file > length. Then I fired up both Winamp and WMP11, which read the MP3 > tags just fine, but then explorer.exe (and rundll32.dll) crashed and > restarted. Wwhen I went back to the explorer window where the music > files are located, all the tag info was gone! Right clicking on any > file and looking at "details" show no info at ALL, and wouldn't let > me edit it either. > From googling this seems to be a common Vista problem, but no one > seems to have found a way to correct it. Explorer has NEVER acted > like this since I've had this machine. I downloaded a couple MP3 > taggers to try to solve the problem, no joy. > > My guess is that something in the registry got changed to make > certain file info "hidden", but I have no clue where to start looking > or for what term. HELP! LOL, don't take offense at this, but sometimes it's like if you didn't have bad luck, you'd have no luck at all :-)! Been there done that!! GOOD luck, Twayne From nobody at spamcop.net Tue Jan 26 14:10:05 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Tue Jan 26 14:10:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Oh NOOOOOO!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Joe Gill" wrote in message news:hjlkbc$b04$1@news.spamcop.net... > > My suggestions would be this: > > First, are the tags missing, or the tag 'pane' missing... > If it is the tag 'pane'.. then Organize.....Layout........Detail Pane > I see no "Detail Pane" option in the Layout menu, just "menu" and "Navigation Pane". I'm using Windows Classic folder view, if that makes a difference. > If that fails, then > > A) Shutdown and restart VISTA... > if that does not work.... Done, done, done....no joy. Although I DID figure out what was causing my explorer.exe problem -- a freeware ZIP app called 7-Zip had wormed it's way into the explorer.exe process, deleting it (and removing the loaded dll) has cured the issue. > B) Shutdown, restart in REPAIR MODE, and run CHKDSK with the /F option > Sigh......guess I might as well try that.... From joegill at removethis Tue Jan 26 14:49:23 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Tue Jan 26 14:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Oh NOOOOOO!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote in message news:hjnemd$tsg$1@news.spamcop.net... > Done, done, done....no joy. Although I DID figure out what was causing my > explorer.exe problem -- a freeware ZIP app called 7-Zip had wormed it's > way into the explorer.exe process, deleting it (and removing the loaded > dll) has cured the issue. I run with a basically PURE VISTA ULTIMATE.... It is up all the time... I run a variety of APPS... but almost no FREEWARE or add ons..... I can count on the fingers on one hand the times VISTA has failed or locked up in over 1 yr!! From nobody at spamcop.net Tue Jan 26 18:52:03 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Tue Jan 26 18:55:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Oh NOOOOOO!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote in message news:hjnemd$tsg$1@news.spamcop.net... > >> B) Shutdown, restart in REPAIR MODE, and run CHKDSK with the /F option >> > > Sigh......guess I might as well try that.... Nope, no joy.....still missing all details on music files.... From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 29 20:17:42 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Fri Jan 29 20:20:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH References: Message-ID: "Frog Prince" wrote in message news:hj60a2$vvg$1@news.spamcop.net... > My DIL's sister just delivered her Acer Aspire 5100-5455 lap top. > > It's Vista Home OEM > > The unit goes through the crash repair mode and I get an error message > c000021a [FATAL SYSTEM ERROR] > 0x00000000\(oxc0000001 0x0010037c) > > I need a boot disk so I can access the data on her HDD (lots of pictures > of my grand kids) > > Any help/recommendations would be appreciated. > Not that this will help you right now, but I hear that MS is making Windows 7 available to people with recently purchased PC's with Vista, because Vista really does suck ass. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/buy/offers/upgrade-option.aspx I have the new Windows 7 on my PC at work after a trojan pretty much trashed XP - I really like it so far, and it's been problem free. Getting around is a bit like going from Office 2003 to Office 2007, but I've managed to fix most everything the way I want it. From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 29 20:19:37 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Fri Jan 29 20:20:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH References: Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote in message news:hji61p$4iu$1@news.spamcop.net... > > Hasn't MS ceased supporting Win2k? It's only a matter of time before > they'll quit supporting XP too, it's expensive to keep up support for 3 > OS's. They seem to quit on the 3rd oldest version a couple years after the > latest and greatest version is released (Win7 in this case). They've supposedly extended XP support to 2014, which should see most people into their next computer, I think that's what I"m holding out for, I don't want to pay for an upgrade if I don't have to. From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 29 20:26:39 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Fri Jan 29 20:30:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? References: Message-ID: "Ellen" wrote in message news:hiscjj$o33$1@news.spamcop.net... > > no I am not rebooting after every use -- I only reboot when necessary > > not running mcafee, am running AVG > > I do not let windows update run automatically > > What I am saying is that I can sit here for an hour or more (or longer) > and have this problem Do you trust AVG? Iv'e been happy with it for years, and then three times in the last week, at work and home, I've been invaded by trojans ( I am so anal, that has never happened before). AVG didn't pick it up at first, I ended up having to download malwarebtyes and get rid of it that way. At work we had Trend Micro (useless), and that ended with me having to wipe and reinstall the OS. I did notice some weird stuff going on, obviously something nefarious taking over and it was literally everywhere, took 3 scans of Malwarebytes to get rid of it completely. From nobody at spamcop.net Fri Jan 29 20:59:48 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Fri Jan 29 21:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk01sg$r41$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "Ellen" wrote in message > news:hiscjj$o33$1@news.spamcop.net... >> > >> no I am not rebooting after every use -- I only reboot when necessary >> >> not running mcafee, am running AVG >> >> I do not let windows update run automatically >> >> What I am saying is that I can sit here for an hour or more (or longer) >> and have this problem > > Do you trust AVG? Iv'e been happy with it for years, My biggest issue with AVG is that when you install some software or Win updates they apps warn you to close all other apps before installing, and it's damn near impossible to totally shutdown AVG completely without changing your startup settings and rebooting first. If you try to kill the AVG processes they automagically restart like a virus. I've never been able to figure out a way to halt AVG except for "suspending" the processes, but I'm not sure that is enough. It's probably one of the reasons some Win updates cause me such problems -- some of the dll's being updated are still loaded in RAM and I can't kill them off first. From loyal at spamcop.user Fri Jan 29 23:56:42 2010 From: loyal at spamcop.user (AndrewB) Date: Sat Jan 30 00:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] PC-Tools - any personal testimonials? Message-ID: My Lenovo Laptop came with a branded version of PC-Tools Toolbox. Anyone have any experience with the backup software? Any other value to get out of this software that isn't obvious? The hardware checks look interesting, but I'm not expecting problems on a new laptop. AndrewB From me at privacy.net Sat Jan 30 00:59:44 2010 From: me at privacy.net (Frog Prince) Date: Sat Jan 30 01:05:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: VISTA CRASH References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk01bn$qu5$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "Frog Prince" wrote in message > news:hj60a2$vvg$1@news.spamcop.net... >> My DIL's sister just delivered her Acer Aspire 5100-5455 lap top. >> >> It's Vista Home OEM >> >> The unit goes through the crash repair mode and I get an error message >> c000021a [FATAL SYSTEM ERROR] >> 0x00000000\(oxc0000001 0x0010037c) >> >> I need a boot disk so I can access the data on her HDD (lots of pictures >> of my grand kids) >> >> Any help/recommendations would be appreciated. >> > > Not that this will help you right now, but I hear that MS is making > Windows 7 available to people with recently purchased PC's with Vista, > because Vista really does suck ass. > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/buy/offers/upgrade-option.aspx Won't help with my problem. Reading between the lines seems to me that the laptop muf are carrying much of the cost. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 11:36:13 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 11:40:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] What is WITH all the trojans? Message-ID: I've never been infected by anything, and this now makes four times in the last two weeks, another trojan found by AVG in the scan last night, Hiloti.M. It's removed, malwarebytes finds nothing now, but what's going on that this is suddenly happening? I've got AVG, Zone Alarm running, securities set where they've always been. I use Firefox, not IE, I don't get it. My resident geek at work thinks they're mostly 'drive by's' from ads at the sides of Yahoo mail screens or whatever. I don't know, but I find it disturbing. I had AVG Link Scanner running but I turned it off because I thought it slowed down browsing to a crawl. Do I need it after all? From joegill at removethis Sat Jan 30 12:24:12 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Sat Jan 30 12:25:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk1n7t$d04$1@news.spamcop.net... > I've never been infected by anything, and this now makes four times in the > last two weeks, another trojan found by AVG in the scan last night, > Hiloti.M. It's removed, malwarebytes finds nothing now, but what's going > on that this is suddenly happening? I've got AVG, Zone Alarm running, > securities set where they've always been. I use Firefox, not IE, I don't > get it. My resident geek at work thinks they're mostly 'drive by's' from > ads at the sides of Yahoo mail screens or whatever. I don't know, but I > find it disturbing. I had AVG Link Scanner running but I turned it off > because I thought it slowed down browsing to a crawl. Do I need it after > all? > Just be thankful it is not one of the '2010 Antivirus' infections.. .What a PIA to remove! Have removed it from 2 peoples PCs One piece of software I would suggest is SUPERANTISPYWARE (from SuperAntiSpyware.com) It has been a great tool for me.. It is sooo good, I sprung for the paid version, to pick up a couple other bells/whistles! One warning: It is SUPER aggressive on cookie removal. Another thought.. One of the 'traps' people have fallen into, is that they click on a link and a small box pops up saying something to the effect "Your current Flash Player is out of date"... NEVER click on it... It delivers malware by the boatload! Also when I removed the "AntiVirus 2010" from one computer, AVG kept finding it in the "System Volume Information" files (Restore Points).... this may be what you are seeing. ye Also, in the case of Antiviris 2010, the crazy malware 'outsmarts' malwarebytes. There was a special process you had to do involving downloading a malwarebytes module from a separate location! I soooooo much would like to find the disributors of this, and get THEM to click a module which WIPES their hard drives!! From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 12:45:02 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 12:45:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "Joe Gill" wrote in message news:hk1pvu$dug$1@news.spamcop.net... > > Just be thankful it is not one of the '2010 Antivirus' infections.. .What > a PIA to remove! > Have removed it from 2 peoples PCs > > One piece of software I would suggest is SUPERANTISPYWARE (from > SuperAntiSpyware.com) > It has been a great tool for me.. It is sooo good, I sprung for the paid > version, to pick up a couple other bells/whistles! > One warning: It is SUPER aggressive on cookie removal. I"ll try that - apparently I'm still infected with something because all my google searches are redirecting to "searchfindsite". MajorGeeks recommends Superantispyware, I"ll do that first. > > Another thought.. One of the 'traps' people have fallen into, is that they > click on a link and a small box pops up saying something to the effect > "Your current Flash Player is out of date"... NEVER click on it... It > delivers malware by the boatload! I NEVER click on any kind of update notice, I do them manually because I know that a lot of this crap is evil. > > Also when I removed the "AntiVirus 2010" from one computer, AVG kept > finding it in the "System Volume Information" files (Restore Points).... > this may be what you are seeing. It is.....among other things. "C:\System Volume Information\_restore{4E015214-6BB0-4181-B365-456CF1DEC069}\RP1111\A0268193.dll";"Trojan horse Hiloti.M";"Moved to Virus Vault" > Also, in the case of Antiviris 2010, the crazy malware 'outsmarts' > malwarebytes. There was a special process you had to do involving > downloading a malwarebytes module from a separate location! > > I soooooo much would like to find the disributors of this, and get THEM to > click a module which WIPES their hard drives!! As would I ..... I just don't get where it's coming from. I tried once again to use the active link scanner but it took minutes to load a page, I can't STAND that. I'm doing SAS right now....... From joegill at removethis Sat Jan 30 12:53:02 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Sat Jan 30 12:55:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk1r6v$ebc$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "Joe Gill" wrote in message > news:hk1pvu$dug$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> Just be thankful it is not one of the '2010 Antivirus' infections.. .What >> a PIA to remove! >> Have removed it from 2 peoples PCs >> >> One piece of software I would suggest is SUPERANTISPYWARE (from >> SuperAntiSpyware.com) >> It has been a great tool for me.. It is sooo good, I sprung for the paid >> version, to pick up a couple other bells/whistles! >> One warning: It is SUPER aggressive on cookie removal. > > I"ll try that - apparently I'm still infected with something because all > my google searches are redirecting to "searchfindsite". MajorGeeks > recommends Superantispyware, I"ll do that first. >> >> Another thought.. One of the 'traps' people have fallen into, is that >> they click on a link and a small box pops up saying something to the >> effect "Your current Flash Player is out of date"... NEVER click on it... >> It delivers malware by the boatload! > > I NEVER click on any kind of update notice, I do them manually because I > know that a lot of this crap is evil. >> >> Also when I removed the "AntiVirus 2010" from one computer, AVG kept >> finding it in the "System Volume Information" files (Restore Points).... >> this may be what you are seeing. > > It is.....among other things. > "C:\System Volume > Information\_restore{4E015214-6BB0-4181-B365-456CF1DEC069}\RP1111\A0268193.dll";"Trojan > horse Hiloti.M";"Moved to Virus Vault" > >> Also, in the case of Antiviris 2010, the crazy malware 'outsmarts' >> malwarebytes. There was a special process you had to do involving >> downloading a malwarebytes module from a separate location! >> >> I soooooo much would like to find the disributors of this, and get THEM >> to click a module which WIPES their hard drives!! > > As would I ..... I just don't get where it's coming from. I tried once > again to use the active link scanner but it took minutes to load a page, I > can't STAND that. I'm doing SAS right now....... > > > Good... post back results.... If it still persists, I will find the 'process' for MALWAREBYTES... it is about a 7-10 step process! There are some extra modules to download... Good luck! From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 13:13:24 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 13:15:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "Joe Gill" wrote in message news:hk1rm1$ei5$1@news.spamcop.net... > > > Good... post back results.... > If it still persists, I will find the 'process' for MALWAREBYTES... it is > about a 7-10 step process! > There are some extra modules to download... > > Good luck! > Still scanning - first thing it found was "Rogue Internet Security 2010". Uh oh. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 13:46:12 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sat Jan 30 13:50:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: PC-Tools - any personal testimonials? References: Message-ID: In news:hk0e6e$v75$1@news.spamcop.net, AndrewB typed: > My Lenovo Laptop came with a branded version of PC-Tools Toolbox. > Anyone have any experience with the backup software? Any other value > to get out of this software that isn't obvious? The hardware checks > look interesting, but I'm not expecting problems on a new laptop. > > > AndrewB I think the main thing is, it won't hurt anything. I haven't used it in a long time but it never really found anything and was less aggressive than other programs. But, it's there, it was free, so why not use it until you decided it's worthless? Your laptop may be new, but ... it won't be "new" for long. Years go by quickly and suddenly that new laptop might need some help. Just be sure to keep anything you do use updated and ready to roll. IMO anyway. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 14:11:09 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (bar0) Date: Sat Jan 30 14:15:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk1ss5$eub$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "Joe Gill" wrote in message > news:hk1rm1$ei5$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> >> Good... post back results.... >> If it still persists, I will find the 'process' for MALWAREBYTES... it is >> about a 7-10 step process! >> There are some extra modules to download... >> >> Good luck! >> > Still scanning - first thing it found was "Rogue Internet Security 2010". > Uh oh. Cross my fingers, so far I've been either lucky or careful enough, probably both. Once any trojan successfully loads, your machine will be infected by dozens within minutes. I user Spybot, among other things if null routes a large numer of domains and blacklists a number of IP's. About 30% of frames in yahoo are null routed and only sya sight not found , check your internet connection or something like that. In MSN anout 5-10% of the ads are saimilarly stopped. Nevertheless the other day there was a popup asking me to check for spyware and it wasn't from my AV. It came up on my Yahoo mail page from one of the ads. I handle those with the power plug. I don't know enough about windows to be sure that "Close"ing a dialogue necessarily actually closes it. I mean if I were a trojan writer, cancel and agree in my javascript popup would both do the same thing. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 14:22:10 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (bar0) Date: Sat Jan 30 14:25:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] How does one go about updating the OS on a Flaptop? Message-ID: Laptops usually have a number of custom drivers and software to do things like run in low power mode automagically, step cpu speed , handle the graphics cards, create restore files, hibernate, and so on. So, on goes out and buys say Win7 to upgrade an XP Laptop (needs a clean install), how does one ensure that the vendor specific necessaries are bloated onto the system? Especially if its a 64bit laptop that'd been running XP32, and one wants to go Win7 64. Or is upgrading a laptop generally just not done? From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 14:30:20 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 14:35:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "bar0" wrote in message news:hk208c$fur$1@news.spamcop.net... > > Cross my fingers, so far I've been either lucky or careful enough, > probably both. Once any trojan successfully loads, your machine will be > infected by dozens within minutes. OR you could have them and nothing is detecting it !! GRR! Why isn't my firewall or my AVG saying "something's trying to install, do you want it?" > > I user Spybot, among other things if null routes a large numer of domains > and blacklists a number of IP's. About 30% of frames in yahoo are null > routed and only sya sight not found , check your internet connection or > something like that. In MSN anout 5-10% of the ads are saimilarly stopped. > > Nevertheless the other day there was a popup asking me to check for > spyware and it wasn't from my AV. It came up on my Yahoo mail page from > one of the ads. I handle those with the power plug. I don't know enough > about windows to be sure that "Close"ing a dialogue necessarily actually > closes it. I mean if I were a trojan writer, cancel and agree in my > javascript popup would both do the same thing. I wondered exactly the same thing - I keep closing them but I can't imagine it actually does that harmlessly, like you said if you were a determined trojan writer, you couldn't get rid of it that easily. If I were you I would download SuperAntiSpyware and have yourself a scan, some of this crap has been hidden from AVG and MWB. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 14:32:47 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 14:35:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "Joe Gill" wrote in message news:hk1rm1$ei5$1@news.spamcop.net... > >> Good... post back results.... > If it still persists, I will find the 'process' for MALWAREBYTES... it is > about a 7-10 step process! > There are some extra modules to download... > > Good luck! It found Trojan.Agent/Gen-Nullo[Short].Process (in restore files) and Rogue.InternetSecurity2010 - neither AVG or MWB detected it. It removed both to quarantine, and the redirects seem to have stopped but I still have a "Window Security Alerts" red shield in my tray that keeps popping up windows saying no antivirus or firewall is detected - both are running, so that's why I think it's fake but can't get rid of it. Or it's typical Microsoft shit that doesn't recognize any other software but it's own. Just for the hell of it I'm going to fire up AdAware and see if it finds anything. From loyal at spamcop.user Sat Jan 30 14:40:10 2010 From: loyal at spamcop.user (AndrewB) Date: Sat Jan 30 14:45:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Heidi wrote: > I've never been infected by anything, and this now makes four times in the > last two weeks, another trojan found by AVG in the scan last night, > Hiloti.M. It's removed, malwarebytes finds nothing now, but what's going on > that this is suddenly happening? I've got AVG, Zone Alarm running, > securities set where they've always been. I use Firefox, not IE, I don't > get it. My resident geek at work thinks they're mostly 'drive by's' from > ads at the sides of Yahoo mail screens or whatever. I don't know, but I > find it disturbing. I had AVG Link Scanner running but I turned it off > because I thought it slowed down browsing to a crawl. Do I need it after > all? What OS do you have? And when you connect to the network, tell me how it's done. Are you using a router? Or doing something like going right to the DSL modem? One quick story. Several years ago, my youngest bro was so happy to get a copy of Win2000 for Christmas and get Win98 off of his desktop. He immediately installed it. He then dialed out on the modem to get the updates for Win2000, which was probably 1-2 years old at that time. Due to the time downloading service packs over a modem, and the fact that he was on the direct internet, he was infected twice before completing the download, and had re-installed three times before getting frustrated. We then used my brilliant idea to take a blank CD-Rom to Dad's office, where we downloaded the service packs. AVG may not be getting updated as quickly as you need it to be. This is why I love commercial AV systems like Kaspersky, BitDefender, Norton, and the like. I'm using Kaspersky now, and I'm pretty impressed. Just for comparison sake, Kaspersky is telling me that their malware database has 3,372,647 entries in it, and it was updated 2 hours ago. Now is a good time of the year to buy software, as if you buy a tax package at Fry's or perhaps Best Buy and such, you can get many other software packages for free after rebate. Also, as you use Firefox, consider the Adblock Plus and NoScript addons. I'm suspect that you are getting hit by drive-by type of attacks as you surf the web with Firefox as your geek friend thinks. I'm thinking that you might not have the best detection systems, be on the direct internet, or indirectly using Internet Explorer components in something like AOL's AIM or something like that. AndrewB From blacklist-me at davjam.org Sat Jan 30 16:40:19 2010 From: blacklist-me at davjam.org (David Bolt) Date: Sat Jan 30 16:45:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> On Saturday 30 Jan 2010 19:32, while playing with a tin of spray paint, Heidi painted this mural: > It found Trojan.Agent/Gen-Nullo[Short].Process (in restore files) and > Rogue.InternetSecurity2010 - neither AVG or MWB detected it. That's not really surprising. I've submitted many viruses and trojans to virustotal.com for scanning, and it's quite rare for more than 50% of the scanners they use to identify a virus, even one that's been circulating for a while. > It removed > both to quarantine, and the redirects seem to have stopped but I still have > a "Window Security Alerts" red shield in my tray that keeps popping up > windows saying no antivirus or firewall is detected - both are running, so > that's why I think it's fake but can't get rid of it. Or it's typical > Microsoft shit that doesn't recognize any other software but it's own. There is at least one fake anti-virus product, 20xx Antivirus I think, that fakes the security centre so it may be that one that's popping up. Alternatively, there could be something hidden that it disabling the anti-virus software, which is a common first act by new viruses and trojans. Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: www.distributed.net OGR-NG @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~1Mkeys/s openSUSE 11.0 32b | | | openSUSE 11.3M0 32b openSUSE 11.0 64b | openSUSE 11.1 64b | openSUSE 11.2 64b | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 11.1 PPC | RISC OS 4.02 | RISC OS 3.11 From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 17:01:33 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (bar0) Date: Sat Jan 30 17:05:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "David Bolt" wrote in message news:1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org... > On Saturday 30 Jan 2010 19:32, while playing with a tin of spray paint, > Heidi painted this mural: > >> It found Trojan.Agent/Gen-Nullo[Short].Process (in restore files) and >> Rogue.InternetSecurity2010 - neither AVG or MWB detected it. .... > There is at least one fake anti-virus product, 20xx Antivirus I think, > that fakes the security centre so it may be that one that's popping up. > Alternatively, there could be something hidden that it disabling the > anti-virus software, which is a common first act by new viruses and > trojans. 20xxAntivirus has had 19XX incarnations yearly since at least 98 Nobody seems to be stopping these fsckers, I guess because they're "privacy protected". From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 17:01:30 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 17:05:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "David Bolt" wrote in message news:1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org... > On Saturday 30 Jan 2010 19:32, while playing with a tin of spray paint, > Heidi painted this mural: Wow...giving me a lot of credit there, LOL I'm not artistic.... > > There is at least one fake anti-virus product, 20xx Antivirus I think, > that fakes the security centre so it may be that one that's popping up. > Alternatively, there could be something hidden that it disabling the > anti-virus software, which is a common first act by new viruses and > trojans. > Well, SAS foung the 2010 thing, disabled it, but the red x sheild thing was still in my tray, popping up warnings and saying 'click this balloon to solve this problem'. I followed bleepingcomputer's procedure to get rid of it, first downloading Rkill that is supposed to kill the processes, but the box kept popping up and no matter how many times I left it open as they say to, and ran rkill again, it didn't disable it. I finally went into msconfig and unchecked the Windows Security box, since I"m not using it anyway and it's obviously not recognizing AVG and ZA, and rebooted. It's gone from my tray, no infections are found, and maybe I got rid of the bad stuff. But...how is this stuff downloading without my permission? Should I be doing something? I have all my cookies on 'ask me always', so I don't get why all of a sudden this stuff can't be halted at the door. From joegill at removethis Sat Jan 30 17:01:31 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Sat Jan 30 17:05:10 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk21h0$ggm$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "Joe Gill" wrote in message > news:hk1rm1$ei5$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >>> Good... post back results.... >> If it still persists, I will find the 'process' for MALWAREBYTES... it is >> about a 7-10 step process! >> There are some extra modules to download... >> >> Good luck! > > It found Trojan.Agent/Gen-Nullo[Short].Process (in restore files) and > Rogue.InternetSecurity2010 - neither AVG or MWB detected it. It removed > both to quarantine, and the redirects seem to have stopped but I still > have a "Window Security Alerts" red shield in my tray that keeps popping > up windows saying no antivirus or firewall is detected - both are running, > so that's why I think it's fake but can't get rid of it. Or it's typical > Microsoft shit that doesn't recognize any other software but it's own. > > Just for the hell of it I'm going to fire up AdAware and see if it finds > anything. > You have the one that is a R O Y A L PIA..... SUPERANTISPYWARE does remove it.... MALWAREBYTES does removes it... BUT... the damn think has already triggered the next generation of itself to fire at startup via a random name! Searching for the doco now on removal.... From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 17:05:46 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sat Jan 30 17:10:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk1r6v$ebc$1@news.spamcop.net... > > I"ll try that - apparently I'm still infected with something because all > my google searches are redirecting to "searchfindsite". MajorGeeks > recommends Superantispyware, I"ll do that first. IIRC there's a checkbox under FF tools/options to not allow redirects -- you should look into it. Also, you mentioned running two AV apps, AVG and ZoneAlarm -- not recommended by most geeks. You should pick one realtime protection app and stay with it (only). You also likely have WinDefender and Firewall running in the background too, unless you've disabled them (NOT recommended!). If you discover the source of the infection, write a firewall rule to block all connections to that source and you won't get infected again. Write a rule to block all connections to "searchfindsite" while you're at it. > > As would I ..... I just don't get where it's coming from. I tried once > again to use the active link scanner but it took minutes to load a page, I > can't STAND that. I'm doing SAS right now....... > I disabled linkscanner too, not because it was slowing down my browsing (never noticed a diff in speed when it was active), but because it was so damn obtrusive, stopping me from going to what I considered safe sites, but it considered them dangerous, and blocked me from going there. If I accidentally download some infected freeware, AVG's scanner flags the download as infected and *poof* it's deleted on the spot, and I mean totally gone deleted. I use a context menu tool called "FileMenuTools" to do it, it has lots of useful menu additions, including the "advanced delete", "delete and no move to the recycle bin", and "shred file" options. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 17:11:27 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sat Jan 30 17:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "bar0" wrote in message news:hk208c$fur$1@news.spamcop.net... > > I user Spybot, among other things if null routes a large numer of domains > and blacklists a number of IP's. About 30% of frames in yahoo are null > routed and only sya sight not found , check your internet connection or > something like that. In MSN anout 5-10% of the ads are saimilarly stopped. I had SpyBot installed on my PC before my recent wipe'n'reinstall, but decided not to reload it. There are certain parts of SpyBot that have to be de-activated before you install updates or new software, and I got tired of hunting down the processes and terminating them. IIRC the "TeaTimer" module is especially interruptive/destructive when installing/updating things. From joegill at removethis Sat Jan 30 17:11:47 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Sat Jan 30 17:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk1n7t$d04$1@news.spamcop.net... > I've never been infected by anything, and this now makes four times in the > last two weeks, another trojan found by AVG in the scan last night, > Hiloti.M. It's removed, malwarebytes finds nothing now, but what's going > on that this is suddenly happening? I've got AVG, Zone Alarm running, > securities set where they've always been. I use Firefox, not IE, I don't > get it. My resident geek at work thinks they're mostly 'drive by's' from > ads at the sides of Yahoo mail screens or whatever. I don't know, but I > find it disturbing. I had AVG Link Scanner running but I turned it off > because I thought it slowed down browsing to a crawl. Do I need it after > all? > OK....I have found the link http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/virus-removal/remove-internet-security-2010 Follow this TO THE 'T'!!! Also printout the instructions before attempting..... Good luck... Post back results.... I will check back in a few hours! From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 17:15:03 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sat Jan 30 17:15:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk21ce$gb3$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "bar0" wrote in message > news:hk208c$fur$1@news.spamcop.net... >> > >> Cross my fingers, so far I've been either lucky or careful enough, >> probably both. Once any trojan successfully loads, your machine will be >> infected by dozens within minutes. > > OR you could have them and nothing is detecting it !! GRR! Why isn't my > firewall or my AVG saying "something's trying to install, do you want it?" >> Again, FF can be set to disallow "blind" installations. > I wondered exactly the same thing - I keep closing them but I can't > imagine it actually does that harmlessly, like you said if you were a > determined trojan writer, you couldn't get rid of it that easily. If I > were you I would download SuperAntiSpyware and have yourself a scan, some > of this crap has been hidden from AVG and MWB. > Do you have AdBlock running in FF? I can't recall ever seeing any of these popups you guys are talking about, I imagine AB is preventing them from showing up in the first place -- it's an absolute "must have" add-on for FF IMO. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 17:20:05 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sat Jan 30 17:20:06 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk21h0$ggm$1@news.spamcop.net... I still have > a "Window Security Alerts" red shield in my tray that keeps popping up > windows saying no antivirus or firewall is detected - both are running, so > that's why I think it's fake but can't get rid of it. Or it's typical > Microsoft shit that doesn't recognize any other software but it's own. That red shield alert can also be caused if you disable DEP in Vista, disable automatic updating, or disable UAC. Also, in Vista, Win Security definitely recognizes AVG as "proper" AV protection, so that's not what's causing the "red shield" in your systray. Oh wait, you're on XP, right? From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 17:21:32 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 17:25:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote in message news:hk2afq$jg0$1@news.spamcop.net... > > > IIRC there's a checkbox under FF tools/options to not allow redirects -- > you should look into it. Also, you mentioned running two AV apps, AVG and > ZoneAlarm -- not recommended by most geeks. You should pick one realtime > protection app and stay with it (only). You also likely have WinDefender > and Firewall running in the background too, unless you've disabled them > (NOT recommended!). If you discover the source of the infection, write a > firewall rule to block all connections to that source and you won't get > infected again. Write a rule to block all connections to "searchfindsite" > while you're at it. There is a checkbox for warning when a site is redirecting, which I always have checked. The last time it redirected I didn't get any warning. After I'd cleaned everything, I got redirected again to something else, but no alerts have been shown. AAVG and ZA have two different purposes. Zone Alarm is running as a firewall, and it by default disables Windows firewall, so there should be no conflict there. I am running AVG as antivirus, which Zone Alarm isn't for, so why would that be a conflict? Bloody HELL.... I just got redirected again, when I clicked on a link to majorgeeks forum, I got this, with no warning: http://www.searchfindsite.com/6932/search.php?keyword=Malware&sid=f8e23fcaa448cf9b7e9fe4d78d5f711d&cid=BPO >> > > I disabled linkscanner too, not because it was slowing down my browsing > (never noticed a diff in speed when it was active), but because it was so > damn obtrusive, stopping me from going to what I considered safe sites, > but it considered them dangerous, and blocked me from going there. I had it on and tried to load the weather channel site - I finally had to stop it because it just sat there - disabled it and it loaded right up. I think that's not a very good feature. > > If I accidentally download some infected freeware, AVG's scanner flags the > download as infected and *poof* it's deleted on the spot, and I mean > totally gone deleted. I use a context menu tool called "FileMenuTools" to > do it, it has lots of useful menu additions, including the "advanced > delete", "delete and no move to the recycle bin", and "shred file" > options. It did find some things when it did the overnight scan, but nothing "real time". GRR. From joegill at removethis Sat Jan 30 17:31:43 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Sat Jan 30 17:35:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk2bde$jnu$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "Indigo" wrote in message > news:hk2afq$jg0$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> >> IIRC there's a checkbox under FF tools/options to not allow redirects -- >> you should look into it. Also, you mentioned running two AV apps, AVG and >> ZoneAlarm -- not recommended by most geeks. You should pick one realtime >> protection app and stay with it (only). You also likely have WinDefender >> and Firewall running in the background too, unless you've disabled them >> (NOT recommended!). If you discover the source of the infection, write a >> firewall rule to block all connections to that source and you won't get >> infected again. Write a rule to block all connections to "searchfindsite" >> while you're at it. > > There is a checkbox for warning when a site is redirecting, which I always > have checked. The last time it redirected I didn't get any warning. After > I'd cleaned everything, I got redirected again to something else, but no > alerts have been shown. AAVG and ZA have two different purposes. Zone > Alarm is running as a firewall, and it by default disables Windows > firewall, so there should be no conflict there. I am running AVG as > antivirus, which Zone Alarm isn't for, so why would that be a conflict? > > Bloody HELL.... I just got redirected again, when I clicked on a link to > majorgeeks forum, I got this, with no warning: > http://www.searchfindsite.com/6932/search.php?keyword=Malware&sid=f8e23fcaa448cf9b7e9fe4d78d5f711d&cid=BPO >>> >> >> I disabled linkscanner too, not because it was slowing down my browsing >> (never noticed a diff in speed when it was active), but because it was so >> damn obtrusive, stopping me from going to what I considered safe sites, >> but it considered them dangerous, and blocked me from going there. > > I had it on and tried to load the weather channel site - I finally had to > stop it because it just sat there - disabled it and it loaded right up. I > think that's not a very good feature. >> >> If I accidentally download some infected freeware, AVG's scanner flags >> the download as infected and *poof* it's deleted on the spot, and I mean >> totally gone deleted. I use a context menu tool called "FileMenuTools" to >> do it, it has lots of useful menu additions, including the "advanced >> delete", "delete and no move to the recycle bin", and "shred file" >> options. > It did find some things when it did the overnight scan, but nothing "real > time". GRR. > Until you run the 'process' in the posting I did with the link from 'bleeping computer'.... This stupid piece of malware, basically OWNS your PC.... It you let it sit around long enough, you will get an even bigger surprise... it drops porn links on the desktop.... Run the steps in the memo I posted with the link to bleepingcomputer.... From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 18:20:44 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sat Jan 30 18:25:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: In news:hk21ce$gb3$1@news.spamcop.net, Heidi typed: > "bar0" wrote in message > news:hk208c$fur$1@news.spamcop.net... >> > >> Cross my fingers, so far I've been either lucky or careful enough, >> probably both. Once any trojan successfully loads, your machine will >> be infected by dozens within minutes. > > OR you could have them and nothing is detecting it !! GRR! Why isn't > my firewall or my AVG saying "something's trying to install, do you > want it?" For what it's worth, there is a program that runs in realtime that monitors and notifies you of ANY program that tries to start that it hasn't seen before. When it's first installed it reads the installed base on your PC and after that, anything that runs has to be given permission by you first. It's called Winpatrol and widely available with a Google search. I can't say for certain that this latest trojan set can't go around it somehow, but so far so good. The good part is, if you say no, the software, whatever it is, can never run and you get to stop it before it can run. So far nothing new has ever run without my permission AFAICT. If you buy the Pro version, you also get access to a database of a gazillion filenames and descriptions of what they are, how likely it is they could be malware, what folder they should be in, and so on. It's an excellent service and has served me well many times. HTH, Twayne >> >> I user Spybot, among other things if null routes a large numer of >> domains and blacklists a number of IP's. About 30% of frames in >> yahoo are null routed and only sya sight not found , check your >> internet connection or something like that. In MSN anout 5-10% of >> the ads are saimilarly stopped. Nevertheless the other day there was a >> popup asking me to check for >> spyware and it wasn't from my AV. It came up on my Yahoo mail page >> from one of the ads. I handle those with the power plug. I don't >> know enough about windows to be sure that "Close"ing a dialogue >> necessarily actually closes it. I mean if I were a trojan writer, >> cancel and agree in my javascript popup would both do the same >> thing. > > I wondered exactly the same thing - I keep closing them but I can't > imagine it actually does that harmlessly, like you said if you were a > determined trojan writer, you couldn't get rid of it that easily. If I > were you I would download SuperAntiSpyware and have yourself a > scan, some of this crap has been hidden from AVG and MWB. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 18:22:29 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sat Jan 30 18:25:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: In news:hk21h0$ggm$1@news.spamcop.net, Heidi typed: > "Joe Gill" wrote in message > news:hk1rm1$ei5$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >>> Good... post back results.... >> If it still persists, I will find the 'process' for MALWAREBYTES... >> it is about a 7-10 step process! >> There are some extra modules to download... >> >> Good luck! > > It found Trojan.Agent/Gen-Nullo[Short].Process (in restore files) and > Rogue.InternetSecurity2010 - neither AVG or MWB detected it. It > removed both to quarantine, and the redirects seem to have stopped > but I still have a "Window Security Alerts" red shield in my tray > that keeps popping up windows saying no antivirus or firewall is > detected - both are running, so that's why I think it's fake but > can't get rid of it. Or it's typical Microsoft shit that doesn't > recognize any other software but it's own. If you're running other than Microsoft's firewall, it's possible the "I'll monitor it myself" box became unticked in the security settings. Maybe that's all that's wrong. I hope anyway. Twayne > > Just for the hell of it I'm going to fire up AdAware and see if it > finds anything. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 18:31:12 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 18:35:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "Joe Gill" wrote in message news:hk2ar6$jgu$1@news.spamcop.net... > > OK....I have found the link > > http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/virus-removal/remove-internet-security-2010 > > Follow this TO THE 'T'!!! > Also printout the instructions before attempting..... > Thanks, I found and started that earlier - I posted above somewhere that the first thing they tell you to do is download rkill, which I did and ran several times, got the popups and left them open - funny when the popups show up, the explorer window I'm starting the rkill from gets closed. I've left the warnings open and restarted numerous times, it still won't stop the popups. I didn't bother with another malwarebytes scan because that scan is the one that found and removed it this morning, so would it find it again? Once I disabled the MS security in msconfig, the popups stopped and the red x shield disappeared from my browser. I wasn't using any of it anyway, so I shouldn't need it, it never recognized ZA or AVG either when they were both running. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 18:34:33 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 18:35:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? References: Message-ID: "Indigo" wrote in message news:hk03qj$rnn$1@news.spamcop.net... > > My biggest issue with AVG is that when you install some software or Win > updates they apps warn you to close all other apps before installing, and > it's damn near impossible to totally shutdown AVG completely without > changing your startup settings and rebooting first. If you try to kill the > AVG processes they automagically restart like a virus. I've never been > able to figure out a way to halt AVG except for "suspending" the > processes, but I'm not sure that is enough. It's probably one of the > reasons some Win updates cause me such problems -- some of the dll's being > updated are still loaded in RAM and I can't kill them off first. Funny you should say that - I'm running the scan in Kaspersky.com, it says to disable Av programs, so I 'shut it down' in task mgr, but the processes are still running, and there is no way to disable it aside from going to msconfig and disabling it, which I didn't do. If it runs into problems during the scan, I guess that's my next plan. From not at home.today Sat Jan 30 18:33:16 2010 From: not at home.today (Ant) Date: Sat Jan 30 18:35:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote: > But...how is this stuff downloading without my permission? Because your software needs patching/updating? Because you are already infected with something? > Should I be doing something? Yes. Clean your PC then update your software. > I have all my cookies on 'ask me always', so I don't get > why all of a sudden this stuff can't be halted at the door. Cookies are irrelevant. They are not a risk. Malware relies on two methods to get installed: (1) User ignorance (social engineering, poor security config). (2) Bugs in software. Regarding (1) * Don't surf the web with administrator rights. Consider running the browser in a sandbox or with reduced permissions. * Don't click on dialogs which are not generated by the OS or the software (browser) you are using. Instead kill the process from task mangler. * Don't allow browser plugins which render documents other than html to run automatically. In some cases consider disabling browser features like the ability to run Java applets (note, I don't mean Javascript). If you want a plugin to open a document make sure it's tightly configured; e.g. don't allow it to run any embedded script. * Use a firewall. * etc... Regarding (2) There's really only one isuue here: keep your OS and internet facing software up-to-date with the latest security patches. This includes Sun's JVM if you allow Java; browser plugins for viewing PDFs, Adobe Flash, Word & Powerpoint etc. documents; any 3rd party toolbars you may have. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 18:35:57 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sat Jan 30 18:40:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: In news:hk2a7s$jav$1@news.spamcop.net, Heidi typed: > "David Bolt" wrote in message > news:1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org... >> On Saturday 30 Jan 2010 19:32, while playing with a tin of spray >> paint, Heidi painted this mural: > > Wow...giving me a lot of credit there, LOL I'm not artistic.... >> >> There is at least one fake anti-virus product, 20xx Antivirus I >> think, that fakes the security centre so it may be that one that's >> popping up. Alternatively, there could be something hidden that it >> disabling the anti-virus software, which is a common first act by >> new viruses and trojans. >> > Well, SAS foung the 2010 thing, disabled it, but the red x sheild > thing was still in my tray, popping up warnings and saying 'click > this balloon to solve this problem'. I followed bleepingcomputer's > procedure to get rid of it, first downloading Rkill that is supposed > to kill the processes, but the box kept popping up and no matter how > many times I left it open as they say to, and ran rkill again, it > didn't disable it. I finally went into msconfig and unchecked the > Windows Security box, since I"m not using it anyway and it's > obviously not recognizing AVG and ZA, and rebooted. It's gone from > my tray, no infections are found, and maybe I got rid of the bad > stuff. I don't think you should have done that and you're not aware of some of the Security Center settings you can use; all you did was hide the notice, which might be hiding a symptom of something. Windows doesn't "recognize" any firewall, for instance. Better to set it so it knows for instance what AV you're using, what firewall, etc., so it won't bug you with the error indicator. Once you tell the security center what you're doing, it will let you know for instance if you AVG stops but otherwise you won't be hearing about any errors. . At least it does here. One of the favorite things of these trojans et al is to turn off AV and firewalls, so if it quits suddenly and you don't notice it or it's not in your system tray, you could go fo some time without knowing it was stopped. Which with a trojan dropper might be a disaster. > > But...how is this stuff downloading without my permission? Should I > be doing something? I have all my cookies on 'ask me always', so I > don't get why all of a sudden this stuff can't be halted at the door. Cookies are irrelevant to trojans and any other kind of malware; they're only text files and can't do anything as far as executing anything goes. There are several ways for this stuff to get into one's machine though, including but not limited to: 1. Unwittingly downloading it when you download something entirely different and that works fine on your computer. You just aren't aware that the site was hacked, or the site intentionally placed the malware in the code and so on and so forth. 2. The perp is building a zombie army and taking his time at stealing any personal info he can first, by testing and auto-probing around to find any open ports or ways into your computer. If all your ports arean't stealthed, then you can pretty much assume that there's an army of code out there picking away at whatever ones are open, looking for access holes. They start with the most common ports and work their way from there. With proper security they'll never make it in. But do NOT aske me what "proper" security is! All one can do is as much as one can do based on experience and research. 3. E-mail attachments are favorite ways for them to get in. Even your best, most trusted friend can send you a virus and malware if they don't know they have it. Or vice-versa, as a matter of fact. There's more but those are the three basics, I think. Best of luck, Twayne From blacklist-me at davjam.org Sat Jan 30 18:43:48 2010 From: blacklist-me at davjam.org (David Bolt) Date: Sat Jan 30 18:45:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: <1348863.3vaeNJFYEL@dev.null.davjam.org> On Saturday 30 Jan 2010 22:01, while playing with a tin of spray paint, Heidi painted this mural: > But...how is this stuff downloading without my permission? Should I be > doing something? I have all my cookies on 'ask me always', so I don't get > why all of a sudden this stuff can't be halted at the door. It's nothing to do with cookies. There are several possible methods of infection, some of which will possibly be an unknown and/or unpatched browser exploit. Maybe it's used some malicious code in an iframe. Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: www.distributed.net OGR-NG @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~1Mkeys/s openSUSE 11.0 32b | | | openSUSE 11.3M0 32b openSUSE 11.0 64b | openSUSE 11.1 64b | openSUSE 11.2 64b | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 11.1 PPC | RISC OS 4.02 | RISC OS 3.11 From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 19:24:08 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 19:25:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "AndrewB" wrote in message news:hk21ut$gho$1@news.spamcop.net... > What OS do you have? And when you connect to the network, tell me how > it's done. Are you using a router? Or doing something like going right > to the DSL modem? XP SP3, cable modem to Netgear wireless router to wall ( I got the router just after Christmas to allow me to connect with my wireless netbook inherited from my mother), it's password protected, if that matters. > AVG may not be getting updated as quickly as you need it to be. This is > why I love commercial AV systems like Kaspersky, BitDefender, Norton, and > the like. I'm using Kaspersky now, and I'm pretty impressed. Just for > comparison sake, Kaspersky is telling me that their malware database has > 3,372,647 entries in it, and it was updated 2 hours ago. I've had both Norton and McAfee, they were nothing but trouble, especially if you needed to reinstall, it was hopeless trying to get help and I lost plenty of money in not being able to reinstall a license I'd paid for, or getting any kind of help or adjustment. Back then the only help was to post on their forum, that's absurd. McAfee was so intrusive even when NOT installed I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. I've set AVG to update and scan every night, and unless it needs permission from Zone Alarm, it does so flawlessly. Aside from the recent problems, it has been very reliable. I'm running the Kapersky scan online now, I don't mind paying up for something but I want to make sure it works. > Now is a good time of the year to buy software, as if you buy a tax > package at Fry's or perhaps Best Buy and such, you can get many other > software packages for free after rebate. > > Also, as you use Firefox, consider the Adblock Plus and NoScript addons. I have the Adblock add on, but I disabled it for some reason, it was being intrusive or slow or something. I'll have to try it again, given all THIS crap, will it detect trojans? > > I'm suspect that you are getting hit by drive-by type of attacks as you > surf the web with Firefox as your geek friend thinks. I'm thinking that > you might not have the best detection systems, be on the direct internet, > or indirectly using Internet Explorer components in something like AOL's > AIM or something like that. > Not on the direct internet, I *never* click on banner ads or ads anywhere, and I only use click through ads for vendors I trust, like Land's End. In fact I go out of my way to use a hosts file or other blocking so I don't even see most ads, and I always block the cookies they want to deposit. Never use IE, or IM, or anything else of that kind, just email, web and OE. I've got every setting on Firefox, including cookies, etc.. to 'ask me', so I know what's being installed and I can block it. I've had to do that on Comcast's web mail, which REALLY pisses me off because I pay for that email, it's not like they should have to sell ads like free services but they still rude shove those damn flash ads right in your face every time you log on. I need to find a way to block flash ads, but so far haven't found anything that doesn't block everything else I use flash for. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 19:38:57 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 19:40:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "Ant" wrote in message news:hk2fma$laq$1@news.spamcop.net... >> Because your software needs patching/updating? > Because you are already infected with something? Updating for Windows, AVG, ZA, etc. is done daily.....if I'm infected, something didn't catch it that should have. > Regarding (1) > * Don't surf the web with administrator rights. Consider running the > browser in a sandbox or with reduced permissions. What do administrator rights have to do with anything? > * Don't click on dialogs which are not generated by the OS or the > software (browser) you are using. Instead kill the process from task > mangler. > * Don't allow browser plugins which render documents other than html > to run automatically. In some cases consider disabling browser > features like the ability to run Java applets (note, I don't mean > Javascript). If you want a plugin to open a document make sure it's > tightly configured; e.g. don't allow it to run any embedded script. > * Use a firewall. > * etc... > > Regarding (2) > There's really only one isuue here: keep your OS and internet facing > software up-to-date with the latest security patches. This includes > Sun's JVM if you allow Java; browser plugins for viewing PDFs, Adobe > Flash, Word & Powerpoint etc. documents; any 3rd party toolbars you > may have. > I don't use third party toolbars except for AVG, I've found most to be intrusive. The FF plugins are used for everything else. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 20:39:20 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Ellen) Date: Sat Jan 30 20:40:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: Strange mouse problems -- loss of focus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Heidi wrote: > > Do you trust AVG? Iv'e been happy with it for years, and then three times in > the last week, at work and home, I've been invaded by trojans ( I am so > anal, that has never happened before). AVG didn't pick it up at first, I > ended up having to download malwarebtyes and get rid of it that way. At > work we had Trend Micro (useless), and that ended with me having to wipe > and reinstall the OS. I did notice some weird stuff going on, obviously > something nefarious taking over and it was literally everywhere, took 3 > scans of Malwarebytes to get rid of it completely. > > yeah I pretty much do trust it altho if you get infected by something before the AV updates then it is pretty common for the infection to successfully hide from the AV ... nowadays I also pretty much adhere to the theory that if you are infected re-imaging is the only way to go. Too many stories of trojans that are supposedly removed that aren't removed. E From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 20:46:51 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 20:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hk2fov$lb3$1@news.spamcop.net... > > I don't think you should have done that and you're not aware of some of > the Security Center settings you can use; all you did was hide the notice, > which might be hiding a symptom of something. Windows doesn't "recognize" > any firewall, for instance. Better to set it so it knows for instance > what AV you're using, what firewall, etc., so it won't bug you with the > error indicator. Once you tell the security center what you're doing, it > will let you know for instance if you AVG stops but otherwise you won't be > hearing about any errors. . At least it does here. > One of the favorite things of these trojans et al is to turn off AV and > firewalls, so if it quits suddenly and you don't notice it or it's not in > your system tray, you could go fo some time without knowing it was > stopped. Which with a trojan dropper might be a disaster. I restarted the security services and then went and set everything to self-monitor, except for the automatic updates. It doesn't recognize or monitor anything else anyway, and ZA disables the Windows firewall when it runs. Just doing that has gotten rid of the red sheld on my tray, **YAY*** so I guess that was the problem since subsequent scans have found nothing. My resident geek at work has downloaded MS Security Essentials on my pc at work, he said it seems to be a pretty good program, but I worry that since everyone attacks micrsoft's vulnerabilities, it's only a matter of time before they start finding away around the Essentials. I imagine all those settings that had never been a problem must have gotten tweaked by the malware as it was popping up it's own garbage notices. After a while I was afraid to click on anything but the difference being there was a link to microsoft's site in their balloon, in the trojan balloon there was no info as to where you'd go if you clicked that link, and I knew that was the bad one. From me at privacy.net Sat Jan 30 21:22:42 2010 From: me at privacy.net (Frog Prince) Date: Sat Jan 30 21:25:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] App to remove all the trial junk that comes with most hardware/software Message-ID: App to remove all the trial junk that comes with most hardware/software. I have it but I can't recall the name.' Anyone? From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 22:11:27 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sat Jan 30 22:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: App to remove all the trial junk that comes with most hardware/software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Frog Prince" wrote in message news:hk2pja$oo9$1@news.spamcop.net... > App to remove all the trial junk that comes with most hardware/software. > > I have it but I can't recall the name.' > > Anyone? > IIRC it's called "DeCrapifier" or something similar. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 22:12:09 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sat Jan 30 22:15:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: App to remove all the trial junk that comes with most hardware/software References: Message-ID: "Frog Prince" wrote in message news:hk2pja$oo9$1@news.spamcop.net... > App to remove all the trial junk that comes with most hardware/software. > > I have it but I can't recall the name.' > > Anyone? Revo Uninstaller? That's how I got rid of the trial crap on my machine. From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 22:13:40 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sat Jan 30 22:15:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk2bde$jnu$1@news.spamcop.net... > It did find some things when it did the overnight scan, but nothing "real > time". GRR. > Do you have it set to scan all downloads automatically? From nobody at spamcop.net Sat Jan 30 22:19:24 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sat Jan 30 22:20:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk2ned$nve$1@news.spamcop.net... ZA disables the Windows firewall when it > runs. Just another reason to ditch ZA in my eyes.... From not at home.today Sat Jan 30 23:06:49 2010 From: not at home.today (Ant) Date: Sat Jan 30 23:10:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote: > "Ant" wrote: >> Because your software needs patching/updating? >> Because you are already infected with something? > > Updating for Windows, AVG, ZA, etc. is done daily.....if I'm infected, > something didn't catch it that should have. You shouldn't rely on anti-malware products for complete protection because none of them can detect everything. Malware authors release new variants daily and the AV/AM vendors are constantly playing catch- up. You must also configure your system securely. >> Regarding (1) >> * Don't surf the web with administrator rights. Consider running the >> browser in a sandbox or with reduced permissions. > > What do administrator rights have to do with anything? It means any malware that runs can get complete control of the system and any effort to remove it can be much more difficult. For example, system files (components of the OS) can be infected and drivers can be loaded which protect malicious files and hide their presence (rootkits). If you or the application you're running has unprivileged normal user rights then the malware is confined to your user area. The OS itself is then not affected and neither are other accounts. >> Regarding (2) >> There's really only one isuue here: keep your OS and internet facing >> software up-to-date with the latest security patches. This includes >> Sun's JVM if you allow Java; browser plugins for viewing PDFs, Adobe >> Flash, Word & Powerpoint etc. documents; any 3rd party toolbars you >> may have. > > I don't use third party toolbars except for AVG, I've found most to be > intrusive. The FF plugins are used for everything else. Firefox and its plugins can be as vulnerable as IE if not kept updated. Adobe plugins for Flash and PDFs in whatever browser have had many vulnerabilities and are relentlessly targeted by malware. Same goes for Java and any media players you might use like Quicktime. It's vital they're kept current and safely configured. From loyal at spamcop.user Sun Jan 31 01:06:39 2010 From: loyal at spamcop.user (AndrewB) Date: Sun Jan 31 01:10:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Heidi wrote: > XP SP3, cable modem to Netgear wireless router to wall ( I got the router > just after Christmas to allow me to connect with my wireless netbook > inherited from my mother), it's password protected, if that matters. Password protection doesn't matter. But I hope it's a very good non-dictionary password. > I've had both Norton and McAfee, they were nothing but trouble, especially > if you needed to reinstall, it was hopeless trying to get help and I lost > plenty of money in not being able to reinstall a license I'd paid for, or > getting any kind of help or adjustment. Back then the only help was to post > on their forum, that's absurd. McAfee was so intrusive even when NOT > installed I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. I've set AVG to update and > scan every night, and unless it needs permission from Zone Alarm, it does so > flawlessly. Aside from the recent problems, it has been very reliable. I'm > running the Kapersky scan online now, I don't mind paying up for something > but I want to make sure it works. One trick I do is to save the keys, which are usually on the cdrom jacket or somesuch. Or I'll use a Sharpie and write them on the cd-rom. I've never had problems re-installing if I kept the secret codes. >> Now is a good time of the year to buy software, as if you buy a tax >> package at Fry's or perhaps Best Buy and such, you can get many other >> software packages for free after rebate. >> >> Also, as you use Firefox, consider the Adblock Plus and NoScript addons. > > I have the Adblock add on, but I disabled it for some reason, it was being > intrusive or slow or something. I'll have to try it again, given all THIS > crap, will it detect trojans? Adblock plus will not detect trojans. But it will keep ads off of your browser. That would eliminate the hypothetical "drive by" >> I'm suspect that you are getting hit by drive-by type of attacks as you >> surf the web with Firefox as your geek friend thinks. I'm thinking that >> you might not have the best detection systems, be on the direct internet, >> or indirectly using Internet Explorer components in something like AOL's >> AIM or something like that. >> > Not on the direct internet, I *never* click on banner ads or ads anywhere, > and I only use click through ads for vendors I trust, like Land's End. In > fact I go out of my way to use a hosts file or other blocking so I don't > even see most ads, and I always block the cookies they want to deposit. > Never use IE, or IM, or anything else of that kind, just email, web and OE. > I've got every setting on Firefox, including cookies, etc.. to 'ask me', so > I know what's being installed and I can block it. I've had to do that on > Comcast's web mail, which REALLY pisses me off because I pay for that email, > it's not like they should have to sell ads like free services but they still > rude shove those damn flash ads right in your face every time you log on. > I need to find a way to block flash ads, but so far haven't found anything > that doesn't block everything else I use flash for. I think NoScript blocks Flash, or adBlock. One of them allows you to click on Flash if you want it to render. So, do you have Firefox 3.6 by chance? Or an older version? An older version might have security holes that are getting exploited in sites you visit or email you read via web interfaces. I have to read the other 90 messages in this thread yet. :) AndrewB From loyal at spamcop.user Sun Jan 31 01:47:17 2010 From: loyal at spamcop.user (AndrewB) Date: Sun Jan 31 01:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: Indigo wrote: > > "Heidi" wrote in message > news:hk2ned$nve$1@news.spamcop.net... > ZA disables the Windows firewall when it >> runs. > > Just another reason to ditch ZA in my eyes.... Why's that? Zone Alarm's firewall comes with all of their products. I'm guessing Heidi has the free ZoneAlarm, which is a basic firewall. You can't have two software firewalls - they get in the way of each other. ZA is better, because it's a two-way firewall, rather than Windows, which just watches inbound connections. Unless Microsoft added outbound support and I missed the memo. AndrewB From loyal at spamcop.user Sun Jan 31 01:54:13 2010 From: loyal at spamcop.user (AndrewB) Date: Sun Jan 31 01:55:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: Ant wrote: > Regarding (2) > There's really only one isuue here: keep your OS and internet facing > software up-to-date with the latest security patches. This includes > Sun's JVM if you allow Java; browser plugins for viewing PDFs, Adobe > Flash, Word & Powerpoint etc. documents; any 3rd party toolbars you > may have. ... and Firefox. Firefox usually won't prompt you to go to the next dot.dot release. Such as, 7.8 to 8.0 and such (not real version numbers). 3.6 is the latest Firefox. ... and all security software, both the base software versions and any datapack versions. AndrewB From Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage at crazyhat.net Sun Jan 31 03:06:38 2010 From: Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage at crazyhat.net (DevilsPGD) Date: Sun Jan 31 03:10:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: How does one go about updating the OS on a Flaptop? References: Message-ID: In message "bar0" was claimed to have wrote: >Laptops usually have a number of custom drivers and software to do things >like run in low power mode automagically, step cpu speed , handle the >graphics cards, create restore files, hibernate, and so on. > >So, on goes out and buys say Win7 to upgrade an XP Laptop (needs a clean >install), how does one ensure that the vendor specific necessaries are >bloated onto the system? Especially if its a 64bit laptop that'd been >running XP32, and one wants to go Win7 64. Or is upgrading a laptop >generally just not done? It's not for the faint of heart, but start with the W7 upgrade advisor, if it says you're good to go then there is hope. If not, start researching any components it complains about. You may not find anything from your laptop's manufacturer, but the actual component manufacturer may have drivers available. These drivers will tend to work, but may not integrate with your laptop as nicely as manufacturer drivers do. From Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage at crazyhat.net Sun Jan 31 03:06:38 2010 From: Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage at crazyhat.net (DevilsPGD) Date: Sun Jan 31 03:10:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: App to remove all the trial junk that comes with most hardware/software References: Message-ID: In message "Frog Prince" was claimed to have wrote: >App to remove all the trial junk that comes with most hardware/software. > >I have it but I can't recall the name.' > >Anyone? I've heard good things about "Decrapafier", but personally, I'd find virgin Microsoft media from somewhere and install using the key on the laptop. This tends to work in Vista and W7 if you find (or modify) the disc, genuine Microsoft Vista discs will determine their functionality based on the key entered, and therefore a single DVD will actually work for any flavour of Windows, OEM, upgrade and full modes as well as the choice of Home Basic/Premium, Business or Ultimate. The only thing about the DVDs is that they're x86 or x64 specific. In W7 the media is equally capable, but it's limited based on a configuration file on the disk. This is fairly trivially modified (although you'll obviously need to burn a new copy) if you so desire. You'll still have to deal with drivers and other setup that manufacturers do, but you'll get a clean machine out of the deal. From not at home.today Sun Jan 31 05:22:49 2010 From: not at home.today (Ant) Date: Sun Jan 31 05:25:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "AndrewB" wrote: > ... and Firefox. Firefox usually won't prompt you to go to the next > dot.dot release. That is bourne out by the second comment here with regard to plugins: http://isc.sans.org/diary.html?storyid=8065 It's therefore wise to not rely on automatic updates always working but keep an eye on security sites like isc.sans.org for the latest news and do a manual check now and again. From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 10:30:11 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sun Jan 31 10:35:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: In news:hk2afq$jg0$1@news.spamcop.net, Indigo typed: > "Heidi" wrote in message > news:hk1r6v$ebc$1@news.spamcop.net... >> >> I"ll try that - apparently I'm still infected with something because all >> my google searches are redirecting to "searchfindsite". MajorGeeks >> recommends Superantispyware, I"ll do that first. > > IIRC there's a checkbox under FF tools/options to not allow redirects > -- you should look into it. Also, you mentioned running two AV apps, > AVG and ZoneAlarm -- not recommended by most geeks. You should pick > one realtime protection app and stay with it (only). You also likely > have WinDefender and Firewall running in the background too, unless > you've disabled them (NOT recommended!). If you discover the source > of the infection, write a firewall rule to block all connections to > that source and you won't get infected again. Write a rule to block > all connections to "searchfindsite" while you're at it. > ... A minor note: AVG and ZoneAlarm are not both AV programs. ZA is a firewall program and it doesn't have the ability to replace AVG. They run fine together IME. It's a matter of preferences, but I use the HOSTS file to block sites like that instead of the various places and points around the computer they can be done. That way it's all in one place rather than some in IE or other browsers, some in the firewall, some in other security apps. Then I just protect the HOSTS file against changes. Caveat: Some programs keep their records in the HOSTS file, like Spybot, so it's not just a matter of making it read-only at times. Such programs put their own set of comments into HOSTS to ID their own additions. HTH, Twayne Twayne From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 10:45:54 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sun Jan 31 10:50:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: In news:hk2fg4$l65$1@news.spamcop.net, Heidi typed: > "Joe Gill" wrote in message > news:hk2ar6$jgu$1@news.spamcop.net... >> > >> OK....I have found the link >> >> http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/virus-removal/remove-internet-security-2010 >> >> Follow this TO THE 'T'!!! >> Also printout the instructions before attempting..... >> > > Thanks, I found and started that earlier - I posted above somewhere > that the first thing they tell you to do is download rkill, which I > did and ran several times, got the popups and left them open - funny > when the popups show up, the explorer window I'm starting the rkill > from gets closed. I've left the warnings open and restarted numerous > times, it still won't stop the popups. I didn't bother with another > malwarebytes scan because that scan is the one that found and removed > it this morning, so would it find it again? It might. It's possible therer is a "regenerative" portion of the malware, meaning it just recreates itself every time it's deleted. There are also sometimes situations where more than one run is required to catch it all. I always run scanners "one more time" until they come up with a clean scan. You said you ran rkill, but did you run it "until ... " as mentioned in the instructions? > > Once I disabled the MS security in msconfig, the popups stopped and > the red x shield disappeared from my browser. I wasn't using any of > it anyway, so I shouldn't need it, it never recognized ZA or AVG > either when they were both running. Hoping to help you get things in order: IMO it's a mistake to disable the Security notifications period, and especially via MSCOnfig. It's also a mistake to use msconfig to permanently stop something from working or loading. Msconfig is only a troubleshooting TOOL, NOT the solution. MSConfig can often tell you WHO the offending program is, but then you need to go and use normal channels to remove or disable the applications it determined were the problem. Disabling MSConfig's notices to you that it want to run isn't good either; it's telling you you left the program in a non-standard state and to put things back after you're done fixing whatever needs fixing. Using Msconfig the way you have is likely to cause some problems down the road when you discover another problem or can't get something to work that you don't realize if part of what you used MSConfig to turn off, IF you even remember you did that by that time. Try to remember; MSConfig is only a Testing Tool, NOT the solution. Use it to troubleshoot, then go and apply the changes via the normal routes. By turning it off, you could have lost an important error indication for the future. I admit it can get confusing, but folks here will be glad to assist you further if you ask, I'm sure. Once something is understood, it moves from complicated to simple. HTH, Twayne From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 10:59:18 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sun Jan 31 11:00:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: In news:hk36ld$t0i$1@news.spamcop.net, AndrewB typed: > Heidi wrote: > >> XP SP3, cable modem to Netgear wireless router to wall ( I got the >> router just after Christmas to allow me to connect with my wireless >> netbook inherited from my mother), it's password protected, if that >> matters. > > > Password protection doesn't matter. But I hope it's a very good > non-dictionary password. ... Umm, password protection does matter actually. Since nearly every router/gateway/switch/et al use a standard username/password, they're very well known around the world. It's the norm to first try the standards on the first tries for these things, and a huge number of gateways still set at defaults allows them right into the machine on the very first try. And if they aren't getting enough accesses to keep busy then they'll try some dictionary attacks and so on. If you're in an urban area especially and using wireless, it's best to set it for WEP (not WAP) and also use stong passwords. HTH, Twayne From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 12:59:54 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (bar0) Date: Sun Jan 31 13:00:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hk49cq$94d$1@news.spamcop.net... > In news:hk36ld$t0i$1@news.spamcop.net, > AndrewB typed: >> Heidi wrote: >> >>> XP SP3, cable modem to Netgear wireless router to wall ( I got the >>> router just after Christmas to allow me to connect with my wireless >>> netbook inherited from my mother), it's password protected, if that >>> matters. >> >> >> Password protection doesn't matter. But I hope it's a very good >> non-dictionary password. > ............... > > Umm, password protection does matter actually. Since nearly every If > you're in an urban area especially and using wireless, it's best to set it > for WEP (not WAP) and also use stong passwords. Eh? I thought WPA was better than WEP, what is WAP? From joegill at removethis Sun Jan 31 13:35:12 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Sun Jan 31 13:40:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Heidi" wrote in message news:hk2fg4$l65$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "Joe Gill" wrote in message > news:hk2ar6$jgu$1@news.spamcop.net... >> > >> OK....I have found the link >> >> http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/virus-removal/remove-internet-security-2010 >> >> Follow this TO THE 'T'!!! >> Also printout the instructions before attempting..... >> > > Thanks, I found and started that earlier - I posted above somewhere that > the first thing they tell you to do is download rkill, which I did and ran > several times, got the popups and left them open - funny when the popups > show up, the explorer window I'm starting the rkill from gets closed. > I've left the warnings open and restarted numerous times, it still won't > stop the popups. I didn't bother with another malwarebytes scan because > that scan is the one that found and removed it this morning, so would it > find it again? > > Once I disabled the MS security in msconfig, the popups stopped and the > red x shield disappeared from my browser. I wasn't using any of it anyway, > so I shouldn't need it, it never recognized ZA or AVG either when they > were both running. You REALLY need to get a successful clean! This sucker will bring his 'buddies' in, if you let it linger!!! Rerun the script EXACTLY... Except.. when you do RKILL.. If you get a pop-up, close it, and quickly run RKILL again....repeat a couple times and continue! Also I ran RKILL from a CMD prompt! Also, if you are gettting the REAL Security Center pop-up, then this stupid thing may have 'dorked' AVG, and you need to reinstall it! From joegill at removethis Sun Jan 31 13:40:20 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Sun Jan 31 13:45:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "bar0" wrote in message news:hk4gep$bgs$1@news.spamcop.net... > > "Twayne" wrote in message > news:hk49cq$94d$1@news.spamcop.net... >> In news:hk36ld$t0i$1@news.spamcop.net, >> AndrewB typed: >>> Heidi wrote: >>> >>>> XP SP3, cable modem to Netgear wireless router to wall ( I got the >>>> router just after Christmas to allow me to connect with my wireless >>>> netbook inherited from my mother), it's password protected, if that >>>> matters. >>> >>> >>> Password protection doesn't matter. But I hope it's a very good >>> non-dictionary password. >> > ............... >> >> Umm, password protection does matter actually. Since nearly every If >> you're in an urban area especially and using wireless, it's best to set >> it for WEP (not WAP) and also use stong passwords. > > Eh? I thought WPA was better than WEP, what is WAP? > IIRC, WEP is easily crackable WPA is better and failrly safe WPA2 is best... But even people with very powerful machines have cracked WPA2! And as the prior posted said 'Non-dictionary' password... My suggestions for a 'key are are follows: A) VaRy the CaSe B) 22+ characters, alpha and numeric. C) No phrases. D) Mine is something like 399Chicago2422bAsHleTs2 From joegill at removethis Sun Jan 31 13:45:14 2010 From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill) Date: Sun Jan 31 13:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hk47m6$8h2$1@news.spamcop.net... > In news:hk2afq$jg0$1@news.spamcop.net, > Indigo typed: >> "Heidi" wrote in message >> news:hk1r6v$ebc$1@news.spamcop.net... >>> >>> I"ll try that - apparently I'm still infected with something because all >>> my google searches are redirecting to "searchfindsite". MajorGeeks >>> recommends Superantispyware, I"ll do that first. >> >> IIRC there's a checkbox under FF tools/options to not allow redirects >> -- you should look into it. Also, you mentioned running two AV apps, >> AVG and ZoneAlarm -- not recommended by most geeks. You should pick >> one realtime protection app and stay with it (only). You also likely >> have WinDefender and Firewall running in the background too, unless >> you've disabled them (NOT recommended!). If you discover the source >> of the infection, write a firewall rule to block all connections to >> that source and you won't get infected again. Write a rule to block >> all connections to "searchfindsite" while you're at it. >> > ... > > A minor note: AVG and ZoneAlarm are not both AV programs. ZA is a > firewall program and it doesn't have the ability to replace AVG. They run > fine together IME. But I thought ZA now sells a product with builtin AV! In fact, only 3 of their products do NOT contain AV... ForceField, ProFirewall, and ZoneAlarmFree From me at privacy.net Sun Jan 31 14:21:37 2010 From: me at privacy.net (anon) Date: Sun Jan 31 14:25:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: App to remove all the trial junk that comes with most hardware/software References: Message-ID: "DevilsPGD" wrote in message news:pedam5pc9br372tph6ci6oh6d5krgk2pub@4ax.com... > In message "Frog Prince" > was claimed to have wrote: > >>App to remove all the trial junk that comes with most hardware/software. >> >>I have it but I can't recall the name.' >> >>Anyone? > > I've heard good things about "Decrapafier", but personally, I'd find > virgin Microsoft media from somewhere and install using the key on the > laptop. > > This tends to work in Vista and W7 if you find (or modify) the disc, > genuine Microsoft Vista discs will determine their functionality based > on the key entered, and therefore a single DVD will actually work for > any flavour of Windows, OEM, upgrade and full modes as well as the > choice of Home Basic/Premium, Business or Ultimate. The only thing > about the DVDs is that they're x86 or x64 specific. > > In W7 the media is equally capable, but it's limited based on a > configuration file on the disk. This is fairly trivially modified > (although you'll obviously need to burn a new copy) if you so desire. > > You'll still have to deal with drivers and other setup that > manufacturers do, but you'll get a clean machine out of the deal. I find Ghosting my C: drive prior to install, then if I don't like it restoring from the Ghost. Quick, dirty, and painless. I am always sure I got rid of ALL the crap the install scattered around. From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 14:32:43 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sun Jan 31 14:35:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "AndrewB" wrote in message news:hk391i$tja$1@news.spamcop.net... > ZA is better, because it's a two-way firewall, rather than Windows, which > just watches inbound connections. > > Unless Microsoft added outbound support and I missed the memo. > > Guess you missed the memo ;-) Or your version of Win doesn't have that capability, or allow you to create custom in and out blocking rules (Vista does, for all kinds of traffic, UDP, HTTP, etc.). From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 14:44:01 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sun Jan 31 14:45:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "Joe Gill" wrote in message news:hk4ih8$cak$1@news.spamcop.net... > > You REALLY need to get a successful clean! > This sucker will bring his 'buddies' in, if you let it linger!!! > Rerun the script EXACTLY... > Except.. when you do RKILL.. If you get a pop-up, close it, and quickly > run RKILL again....repeat a couple times and continue! > Also I ran RKILL from a CMD prompt! > Also, if you are gettting the REAL Security Center pop-up, then this > stupid thing may have 'dorked' AVG, and you need to reinstall it! I really think I am now - MWB found and delted the Security 2010 malware, nothing else has found it (Kaspersky, Super Anti Spyware and AdAware, or last night's scan of AVG). I think when the invasion happened, it altered MS's security features which I had previously set and caused it to say "hey, something's not right", so the popup box I kept getting from MS with the link to the MS site was legit, especially when Rkill was trying to kill it and it kept coming back. The other one where there was no info about the link you were supposed to click and no 'owner' was the virus. It seems to be gone, I reset the info in the MS Security, saying that both AV and Firewall were self monitored, and that has stopped the warning pop up boxes about me not being protected. I've also got the 'no script' program running in Firefox, which has also just been updated this morning, so hopefully I'm good. For a while.....thanks for your help though, this is very annoying. I was talking to a friend this morning who was as at a dinner with a guy last night who is a true computer geek, pays big money for the best McAfee program, and even HE got hit with trojans last week. There must be something new out there. From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 16:13:08 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sun Jan 31 16:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: In news:hk4gep$bgs$1@news.spamcop.net, bar0 typed: > "Twayne" wrote in message > news:hk49cq$94d$1@news.spamcop.net... >> In news:hk36ld$t0i$1@news.spamcop.net, >> AndrewB typed: >>> Heidi wrote: >>> >>>> XP SP3, cable modem to Netgear wireless router to wall ( I got the >>>> router just after Christmas to allow me to connect with my wireless >>>> netbook inherited from my mother), it's password protected, if that >>>> matters. >>> >>> >>> Password protection doesn't matter. But I hope it's a very good >>> non-dictionary password. >> > ............... >> >> Umm, password protection does matter actually. Since nearly every If >> you're in an urban area especially and using wireless, it's best to >> set it for WEP (not WAP) and also use stong passwords. > > Eh? I thought WPA was better than WEP, what is WAP? Umm, sorry 'bout that! Had my tongue in front of my eye teeth and couldn't see what I was thinking!! You are correct, as is Joe in the next post concerning the same thing. Apologies, Twayne From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 16:35:48 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sun Jan 31 16:40:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: In news:hk4j42$cgs$1@news.spamcop.net, Joe Gill typed: > "Twayne" wrote in message > news:hk47m6$8h2$1@news.spamcop.net... >> In news:hk2afq$jg0$1@news.spamcop.net, >> Indigo typed: >>> "Heidi" wrote in message >>> news:hk1r6v$ebc$1@news.spamcop.net... >>>> >>>> I"ll try that - apparently I'm still infected with something >>>> because all my google searches are redirecting to >>>> "searchfindsite". MajorGeeks recommends Superantispyware, I"ll do >>>> that first. >>> >>> IIRC there's a checkbox under FF tools/options to not allow >>> redirects -- you should look into it. Also, you mentioned running >>> two AV apps, AVG and ZoneAlarm -- not recommended by most geeks. >>> You should pick one realtime protection app and stay with it >>> (only). You also likely have WinDefender and Firewall running in >>> the background too, unless you've disabled them (NOT recommended!). >>> If you discover the source of the infection, write a firewall rule >>> to block all connections to that source and you won't get infected >>> again. Write a rule to block all connections to "searchfindsite" >>> while you're at it. >> ... >> >> A minor note: AVG and ZoneAlarm are not both AV programs. ZA is a >> firewall program and it doesn't have the ability to replace AVG. >> They run fine together IME. > > But I thought ZA now sells a product with builtin AV! > In fact, only 3 of their products do NOT contain AV... ForceField, > ProFirewall, and ZoneAlarmFree They do. They have 3 applications, 4 if you count the free firewall version. ZonaAlarm AV and Internet Security is aimed at malware detection ( viruses, spyware, Trojan horses, worms, bots, etc.) while the Internet Security adds their firewall. The other applications don't have AV detection; one is encryption and the other the free version of hte firewall. So I probably did speak too soon. For whatever reason I decided the OP wasn't using the latest & greatest but instead of the answer I tried to give, I should have asked what specific program it was. I stand corrected; thanks for keeping the data accurate. Personally I think their firewall is great product and have used it for a long, long time. I like the feature set and ease of use and understandabilty. Also their support is one of the few left these days that is actuall going to react. I'm a bit leery of their AV and malware capabilities yet so I'm not rushing to test them out. I've switched from IE to FF for the time being until the fiasco over the IE hole/s dies down some. FF seems to be immune from the 2010 etc. problems that are getting so many people these days. That's not to say it won't morph into something that -can- get past FF, but for now at least ... . That said, I do wish them a lot of luck in the AV and spyware areas. Either I need to do a REstart or the site's temporarily broken because I just tried to check their subscription prices but I can't get any links off the page showing the 3 products to work. Both FF and IE fail to open their links, but work fine at Norton and other places. I was interested because in the end I think their products would be cheaper than the alternatives and I would consider switchign to ZA if things worked out right for them. HTH, Twayne From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 16:38:38 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sun Jan 31 16:40:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hk48jm$8td$1@news.spamcop.net... >> > You said you ran rkill, but did you run it "until ... " as mentioned in > the instructions? I ran it about 20 times and gave up because the warning box kept popping up - didn't matter if I ran it with the warning open or closed it, it still returned, but as I said before, I believe that one was legit, because MWB had found and removed the trojan earlier in the day. I think after that what I thought was the trojan was acutally the geniune security warning. > > Hoping to help you get things in order: > > IMO it's a mistake to disable the Security notifications period, and > especially via MSCOnfig. See another post, somewhere, I restarted the Security service, fixed the settings, and now it's being obedient, what was once set at "I'll monitor myself" (I have always used ZA and AVG on this computer, never MS and never had the warnings, so I am sure when I got this PC I set it to "I'll monitor myself"), must have gotten tweaked when the trojan arrived, because the settings didn't acknowledge what else I had running. From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 16:42:11 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sun Jan 31 16:45:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "Ant" wrote in message news:hk3lml$2jg$1@news.spamcop.net... > "AndrewB" wrote: > >> ... and Firefox. Firefox usually won't prompt you to go to the next >> dot.dot release. > > That is bourne out by the second comment here with regard to plugins: > http://isc.sans.org/diary.html?storyid=8065 > > It's therefore wise to not rely on automatic updates always working > but keep an eye on security sites like isc.sans.org for the latest > news and do a manual check now and again. > I must have Firefox set to download automatically, because I leave my pc up and running and very often I get a message saying "you've been updated to the newest version of Firefox", all I have to do is restart. From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 18:40:44 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (bar0) Date: Sun Jan 31 18:45:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "Joe Gill" wrote in message news:hk4iqs$cbd$1@news.spamcop.net... > .... > IIRC, > WEP is easily crackable > WPA is better and failrly safe > WPA2 is best... > But even people with very powerful machines have cracked WPA2! > And as the prior posted said 'Non-dictionary' password... > My suggestions for a 'key are are follows: > A) VaRy the CaSe > B) 22+ characters, alpha and numeric. > C) No phrases. > D) Mine is something like 399Chicago2422bAsHleTs2 I picked up a random string from Gibsons site (The author), there's a random string generator, so I'm good to 64 bytes/chars on WPA, my router doesn't do WPA(2) yet and may never for all I know. From loyal at spamcop.user Sun Jan 31 20:02:54 2010 From: loyal at spamcop.user (AndrewB) Date: Sun Jan 31 20:05:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: Heidi wrote: > "Ant" wrote in message > news:hk3lml$2jg$1@news.spamcop.net... >> "AndrewB" wrote: >> >>> ... and Firefox. Firefox usually won't prompt you to go to the next >>> dot.dot release. >> That is bourne out by the second comment here with regard to plugins: >> http://isc.sans.org/diary.html?storyid=8065 >> >> It's therefore wise to not rely on automatic updates always working >> but keep an eye on security sites like isc.sans.org for the latest >> news and do a manual check now and again. >> > I must have Firefox set to download automatically, because I leave my pc up > and running and very often I get a message saying "you've been updated to > the newest version of Firefox", all I have to do is restart. Ok, that's good. But do you have Firefox 3.6 right now? Just checking. AndrewB From loyal at spamcop.user Sun Jan 31 20:10:30 2010 From: loyal at spamcop.user (AndrewB) Date: Sun Jan 31 20:15:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: Indigo wrote: > > "AndrewB" wrote in message > news:hk391i$tja$1@news.spamcop.net... >> ZA is better, because it's a two-way firewall, rather than Windows, >> which just watches inbound connections. >> >> Unless Microsoft added outbound support and I missed the memo. >> >> > > Guess you missed the memo ;-) Or your version of Win doesn't have that > capability, or allow you to create custom in and out blocking rules > (Vista does, for all kinds of traffic, UDP, HTTP, etc.). I'd rather want to know if Adobe or iTunes or Java or something like that is trying to connect out rather than setting up rules that might be hard to keep up with. Also, should something I download need to connect out, I'd want to know. This includes Windows updates. ZoneAlarm's firewall can do that very easily, with a nice UI per program (and usually the version) to say if it's trusted and can connect out, if it can act as a server, and/or send email. Nice! AndrewB From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 20:49:46 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sun Jan 31 20:50:08 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: In news:hk4t8v$fvv$1@news.spamcop.net, Heidi typed: > "Twayne" wrote in message > news:hk48jm$8td$1@news.spamcop.net... >>> >> You said you ran rkill, but did you run it "until ... " as mentioned >> in the instructions? > > I ran it about 20 times and gave up because the warning box kept > popping up - didn't matter if I ran it with the warning open or > closed it, it still returned, but as I said before, I believe that > one was legit, because MWB had found and removed the trojan earlier > in the day. I think after that what I thought was the trojan was > acutally the geniune security warning. >> >> Hoping to help you get things in order: >> >> IMO it's a mistake to disable the Security notifications period, and >> especially via MSCOnfig. > > See another post, somewhere, I restarted the Security service, fixed > the settings, and now it's being obedient, what was once set at "I'll > monitor myself" (I have always used ZA and AVG on this computer, > never MS and never had the warnings, so I am sure when I got this PC > I set it to "I'll monitor myself"), must have gotten tweaked when the > trojan arrived, because the settings didn't acknowledge what else I > had running. I think you're probably right from the sound of it. FWIW, FireFox apparently isn't subject to the IE problems (so far), so if you feel like it, it might be worth using for a few months. Depends on whether you'll have to use a bunch of addons, etc., whether you'd be happy with it I guess. I found it pretty easy to get used to. Can't have nothin' fun these days without the idiots lousing it all up! I'd love to see these perps caught and put away for the max time. Twayne From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 20:52:18 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Twayne) Date: Sun Jan 31 20:55:07 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: In news:hk59mc$k6j$1@news.spamcop.net, AndrewB typed: > Indigo wrote: >> >> "AndrewB" wrote in message >> news:hk391i$tja$1@news.spamcop.net... >>> ZA is better, because it's a two-way firewall, rather than Windows, >>> which just watches inbound connections. >>> >>> Unless Microsoft added outbound support and I missed the memo. >>> >>> >> >> Guess you missed the memo ;-) Or your version of Win doesn't have >> that capability, or allow you to create custom in and out blocking >> rules (Vista does, for all kinds of traffic, UDP, HTTP, etc.). > > > I'd rather want to know if Adobe or iTunes or Java or something like > that is trying to connect out rather than setting up rules that might > be hard to keep up with. Also, should something I download need to > connect out, I'd want to know. This includes Windows updates. > > ZoneAlarm's firewall can do that very easily, with a nice UI per > program (and usually the version) to say if it's trusted and can > connect out, if it can act as a server, and/or send email. Nice! > > > AndrewB Yeah, it's the simplicity of all that sort of thing that makes ZA such a good application, IMO. IT does what it says it'll do. Twayne From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 21:01:18 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sun Jan 31 21:05:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "AndrewB" wrote in message news:hk597u$jur$1@news.spamcop.net... > Heidi wrote: >> I must have Firefox set to download automatically, because I leave my pc >> up and running and very often I get a message saying "you've been updated >> to the newest version of Firefox", all I have to do is restart. > > Ok, that's good. But do you have Firefox 3.6 right now? Just checking. > Actually, in my experience, that's "not good". A lot of add-ons and extensions I've come to depend on instantly go obselete the moment I upgrade to a newer version of FF, so I've turned off the auto-update function for FF. I'd rather have a fully functional browser than wait for months for the add-on software writers to update their apps to work in the "latest and greatest" version of FF. From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 21:03:39 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo) Date: Sun Jan 31 21:05:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? In-Reply-To: References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "AndrewB" wrote in message news:hk59mc$k6j$1@news.spamcop.net... > > I'd rather want to know if Adobe or iTunes or Java or something like that > is trying to connect out rather than setting up rules that might be hard > to keep up with. Also, should something I download need to connect out, > I'd want to know. This includes Windows updates. By default, the Vista firewall will not allow new connections, it blocks them. That's when you have to go in and create a rule allowing the inbound/outbound traffic for a new app. From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 21:34:05 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sun Jan 31 21:40:09 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: Message-ID: "Twayne" wrote in message news:hk5bvu$l0f$1@news.spamcop.net... > I think you're probably right from the sound of it. FWIW, FireFox > apparently isn't subject to the IE problems (so far), so if you feel like > it, it might be worth using for a few months. Depends on whether you'll > have to use a bunch of addons, etc., whether you'd be happy with it I > guess. I found it pretty easy to get used to. > > Can't have nothin' fun these days without the idiots lousing it all up! > I'd love to see these perps caught and put away for the max time. Yo, that's what is so scary, I've been using FF for over a year, had it set to auto update and security set to high and "ask me" for everything else, and it still managed to sneak through. :( From nobody at spamcop.net Sun Jan 31 21:35:57 2010 From: nobody at spamcop.net (Heidi) Date: Sun Jan 31 21:40:10 2010 Subject: [Scgeeks] Re: What is WITH all the trojans? References: <1991861.lbCDJkKcVG@dev.null.davjam.org> Message-ID: "AndrewB" wrote in message news:hk597u$jur$1@news.spamcop.net... > > Ok, that's good. But do you have Firefox 3.6 right now? Just checking. Yep....