[SpamCop-List] Re: The chinese own spam

[Miss Betsy]

"Marjolein Katsma" <nobody at spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94DCD4EE98E8homesitehelp at 216.154.195.61...
> Miss Betsy (nobody at spamcop.net) wrote in news:c707vu$2gb$1
> @news.spamcop.net:
>
> > IIUC, there are 'races' based on color:  black, white, yellow,
and
> > sometimes brown
>
> That's a definition used only by those who don't know what "race"
really
> is. Color !- race.

race:  any of the different varieties of mankind, distinguished by
form of hair color of skin and eyes, stature, bodily proportions,
etc.; many anthropologists now consider that there are only three
primary major groups, the Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid, each
with various subdivisions.  The term has acquire so many
unscientifict connotations that in this sense it is often replaced
in scientific usgage by ethnic stock or group.

So I was using the 'scientific' definition of race in layman's
terms.

>
> > China is a nation - like the US.
>
> No, China is very unlike the US. It actually has many different
> nationalities - even officially. Unofficially, even more. (As far
as I
> know the US still doesn't recognize the various Indian peoples as
> separate nationalities withing their borders.)
>

It is a nation.  It has one seat in the United Nations.  It has one
government.

> China is a country - NOT a "nation".
>
> > Prejudice against China or the US is not against a race, but
against a
> > nation.
>
> Prejudice against China is against a *perceived* nation (which
doesn't
> exist as such) and/or against one *perceived* race (of which
there are
> actually many in China. (Or prejudice against a *perceived*
political
> system.)
>
> > When people within a nation are prejudiced against certain
portions of
> > the citizenry, it is called 'ethnic' prejudice.
>
> It's called racism if it's prejudice against people of a
different race,
> regardless of whether tehy live insoide or outside of your own
country.
> (Plenty of that within China, as there is still plenty in the
US.)

It is not called 'racism' unless the prejudice is against a
particular race.  People can be, and are, prejudiced against
particular ethnic groups - not because of the race, which may be
the same as theirs, but because of their ethnic (national)
background.  The Poles, the Irish, the Jews, the Italians, and
Mexicans (all Caucasoid) all are 'perceived' as all alike by
sometimes each other, sometimes by those of Scot-English descent at
one time or another in the US.  Racism is prejudice of one race for
another.

>
> > Since the people who are prejudiced against China and Korea
because
> > of spam, are not also prejudiced against Japan and Thailand
(also
> > predominately 'yellow' races), they are not 'racist', but
either
> > ethnic or nationally prejudiced.
>
> They are racist because they are prejudiced a *perceived* race.
Japan,
> Korea, Thailand and China all have different ethnic groups
(races)
> wliving withing their borders. The way you formulate that
sentence
> indicates you don't even know that *neither* 'race' *nor*
'ethnicity'
> applies to any of those countries.

They are not racist because they do not see all people of all
nations who are of a particular 'race' or ethnic stock as being the
same.  They see only the people (of whatever race or ethnic stock)
who are citizens of a particular country as being all the same.

>
> > IOW, a racist holds certain judgmental views about all the
members
> > of a particular race whatever country, those members of a race
> > inhabit.
>
> *Perceived* race. Racism doesn't have to be targeted at "actual"
race -
> there's no such thing as 'yellow races'. The mere fact that you
even use
> such a term _is_ racist. And immensely insulting.

It is a scientific term.  It is descriptive, just as blond hair,
blue eyes is descriptive.  And there are people who are prejudiced
against all blacks or all whites.  Some are only prejudiced against
certain ethnic groups or national groups.  For instance, some
veterans of WWII or Korea are prejudiced against the Japanese or
Koreans, but not both.


>
> > If a person holds a particular view of only the inhabitants of
a
> > particular nation (and most nations have many races and ethnic
> > groups), then it is not racist, but an ethnic prejudice.
>
> How can it be "ethnic prejudice" when it applies to many people
of
> different ethnicity, just because they happen to live in the same
> country (occupied or not)?
>
> People are not "inhabitants of a nation" - they are inhabitants
of a
> _country_ and those inhabitants together may *form* a nation (or
> several).
>
> "Nation" is about identity; "country" is a political &
geographical unit
> with defined (and hopefully recognized) borders.

>From my dictionary: nation: the people of a territory united under
a single government, a country.  Also, a stable, historically
developed community of people with a territory, economic life,
distinctive culture and language in common.

>
> Ethnic prejudice applies to ethnicity therefore is *exactly* the
same
> thing as racism.
>
> > I am not looking anything up, but I think that ethnic applies
to
> > national characteristics.
>
> No, it applies to your *origins*. For instance, Uyghurs, Tadjiks,
> Mongols and Han are all *different* races (of Turki,
Indo-European,
> Mongol and "Han-Chinese" origins) - and they all live within the
same
> country; are recognized even in China as being different
> "nationalities". (Not that the Han's definitions are all that
clear-cut
> because they call the Hui a "nationality", too, just because
they're
> muslims - but ethnically they're Han.)
>

I doubt very much if they are different 'races' - though they may
have different customs, characteristics, language, and a common
history (definition of ethnic).

> > The problem, of course, with prejudice is that it 'prejudges'
> > individuals based on a criterion that is not universal among
those
> > with the identifying characteristic (such as skin color or
passport
> > or religion).
>
> Skin color has actually nothing to do with race. (It does have a
lot to
> do with prejudice - but that's *perceived* race again.)

see above definition from the dictionary.

>
> > In this case, not all Chinese ISP's nor technicians
> > (nor all Chinese people) are greedy or incompetent
opportunists.
>
> Of course not. Not even all people in China (which is more than
> "Chinese" people - if we're talking about ethnicity).
>
> > however, there is a larger base of users in the US and Europe
and
> > Asia who have objected so that those in other places have their
> > activities curtailed.
>
> Just don't forget how HUGE China is. Compared to for instance
Brazil, or
> Costa Rica. The language barrier plays a role, too, I'm sure.
They will
> get the message, some ISPs are already getting the message - it's
just
> going to take one hell of a lot longer than it did with Costa
Rica
> because the country is so HUGE compared to other countries.
>

I am not arguing with you about the prejudice against China because
there are spammers there.

However, it is not a racial prejudice, but a prejudice against a
nation.

Miss Betsy