From warkeng at spamcop.net  Thu Feb  2 07:17:35 2006
From: warkeng at spamcop.net (Grant Warkentin)
Date: Thu Feb  2 02:20:04 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Ironmail Question
Message-ID: <Xns975E2FB28FB7warkengspamcopnet@216.154.195.61>

A company we receive mail from recently installed an ironmail box. Ever 
since the install we have not been able to receive mail from them. Our 
Sendmail is logging the "did not issue a expn/vrfy/recpt ..." error 
message on all their connection atempts.

Increased sendnail logging level and am seeing a lost input channel 
message. Nothing else helpful in the logs.
Have explictly added their domain to our access table - did not help.

I need ideas about what to look at to get this fixed. I am baffled.


We receive 2,00- 5,000 mails / hour successfuly. It's just this one 
company that cannot send to us. We can send to them no problem.

Our system = calgary.ca
two mail gateways - bsd and sendmail 8.12. on a couple of crufty old sun 
boxes.
We accept all mail except stuff that has our domain names in the From. 
The company with the send problem is not doing this. Don't worry, we're 
eating all bounces until we can bring the new gateways online  1-3 
months from now.

We even accept stuff like this barney@fred.wilma (filtering is done on 
an internal server).

Tcpdump seems to show that we send the 220 header, their server acks it. 
then the connection drops. I'm not a tcpdump expert.

They do have am interesting(?) dns setup.
Their main name servers do not return any reverse lookup data.
Their authoritative reverse data comes from a dns server that is not 
listed in their foward zone.

We don't seem to be having problems resolving their mail server ip into 
a name. Sendmail logs contain the name and IP address.

Thanks.

From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Thu Feb  2 11:43:15 2006
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Thu Feb  2 05:45:07 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ironmail Question
References: <Xns975E2FB28FB7warkengspamcopnet@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <slrndu3oi3.4am.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 07:17:35 +0000 (UTC), Grant Warkentin coughed into 
spamcop.geeks and left this in 
<Xns975E2FB28FB7warkengspamcopnet@216.154.195.61>:

> We even accept stuff like this barney@fred.wilma (filtering is done on 
> an internal server).

You say you're using sendmail.

Why not set it so that it rejects (not bounces) mail with unresolveable 
FROM addresses?

As for your other problem, changing the argument to the 
confPRIVACY_FLAGS macro in your sendmail.mc might help, but it's a bad 
idea.

-- 
Steve

Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas
are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
             -- Howard Aiken
From mrmaxx at spamcop.net  Thu Feb  2 17:42:01 2006
From: mrmaxx at spamcop.net (Maxx Excaliber)
Date: Thu Feb  2 17:45:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] G++ question
Message-ID: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>

Hello, all... I'm trying to teach myself how to program in C++. I
purchased a book, "Teach Yourself C++" and am trying to learn how to write
my own programs on my Fedora Core 3 linux box.

I wrote my first "test" program and finally got it to compile (I was
missing the G++ compiler) and am getting the following warning when trying
to compile:
[john@slave1 ~]$ g++ hello.cpp
In file included from /usr/lib/gcc/i386-redhat-linux/3.4.4/../../../../include/c++/3.4.4/backward/iostream.h:31,
                 from hello.cpp:2:
/usr/lib/gcc/i386-redhat-linux/3.4.4/../../../../include/c++/3.4.4/backward/backward_warning.h:32:2: warning: #warning This file includes at least one deprecated or antiquated header. Please consider using one of the 32 headers found in section 17.4.1.2 of the C++ standard. Examples include substituting the <X> header for the <X.h> header for C++ includes, or <iostream> instead of the deprecated header <iostream.h>. To disable this warning use -Wno-deprecated.


Someone suggested trying "#include <iostream>" instead of "#include
<iostream.h>" but that got even worse results:
[john@slave1 ~]$ g++ hello.cpp
hello.cpp: In function `int main()':
hello.cpp:6: error: `cout' undeclared (first use this function)
hello.cpp:6: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in.)

Is anyone here sufficiently a programmer to tell me what the first warning
means? I'm guessing that C++ has changed in the last 3-5 years since the
book I purchased (at the used bookstore) was printed. Maybe it's a linux
thing?
Thanks
	Maxx
From g2p4i1902 at sneakemail.com  Thu Feb  2 23:09:41 2006
From: g2p4i1902 at sneakemail.com (Mr K. Mean)
Date: Thu Feb  2 18:10:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
In-Reply-To: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dru3fn$g73$1@news.spamcop.net>

Maxx Excaliber wrote:

> Someone suggested trying "#include <iostream>" instead of "#include
> <iostream.h>" but that got even worse results:
> [john@slave1 ~]$ g++ hello.cpp
> hello.cpp: In function `int main()':
> hello.cpp:6: error: `cout' undeclared (first use this function)
> hello.cpp:6: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in.)

Wow, it has been a long time for me too.  Probably 6 years since I've 
written anything at all in C++.  But I think what it is saying is the 
iostream.h has been deprecated in favor of the new std lib, which you 
get by using iostream.  cout doesn't exist in that new library, or at 
least not in that namespace.

If you look here
http://www.network-theory.co.uk/docs/gccintro/gccintro_54.html

there is the new hello world.  Specifically
std::cout << "Hello, world!\n";

The std:: means it is referencing the cout function in the std 
namespace.  Here is a quick blurb on namespaces:
http://www.winterdom.com/dev/cpp/nspaces.html
From g2p4i1902 at sneakemail.com  Thu Feb  2 23:15:28 2006
From: g2p4i1902 at sneakemail.com (Mr K. Mean)
Date: Thu Feb  2 18:20:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
In-Reply-To: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dru3qk$ggb$1@news.spamcop.net>

Maxx Excaliber wrote:
> Hello, all... I'm trying to teach myself how to program in C++. I
> purchased a book, "Teach Yourself C++" and am trying to learn how to write
> my own programs on my Fedora Core 3 linux box.
> 
> I wrote my first "test" program and finally got it to compile (I was
> missing the G++ compiler) and am getting the following warning when trying
> to compile:
> [john@slave1 ~]$ g++ hello.cpp
> In file included from /usr/lib/gcc/i386-redhat-linux/3.4.4/../../../../include/c++/3.4.4/backward/iostream.h:31,
>                  from hello.cpp:2:
> /usr/lib/gcc/i386-redhat-linux/3.4.4/../../../../include/c++/3.4.4/backward/backward_warning.h:32:2: warning: #warning This file includes at least one deprecated or antiquated header. Please consider using one of the 32 headers found in section 17.4.1.2 of the C++ standard. Examples include substituting the <X> header for the <X.h> header for C++ includes, or <iostream> instead of the deprecated header <iostream.h>. To disable this warning use -Wno-deprecated.

And by the way, this first one works perfectly fine, if you want to 
ignore the warning, you should still end up with an executable a.out 
file from this:

$ g++ -Wno-deprecated HelloWorld.cpp

The deprecated warning just means that at some point in the future, that 
functionality might get removed, so it is warning you to move on before 
then.
From nobody at devnull.spamcop.net  Thu Feb  2 20:47:11 2006
From: nobody at devnull.spamcop.net (Pop)
Date: Thu Feb  2 20:50:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <drucms$ler$1@news.spamcop.net>

If you ever get "G" ++ working, let us know, OK?  <G>  I must be 
getting old; I completely missed D++, E++ and F++.

Or was that a test?  Did I pass?
Orrrrrr, uhhh, is that maybe why C++ is giving you pablums?

;-}

Pop


"Maxx Excaliber" <mrmaxx@spamcop.net> wrote in message 
news:pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net...
: Hello, all... I'm trying to teach myself how to program in C++. 
I
: purchased a book, "Teach Yourself C++" and am trying to learn 
how to write
: my own programs on my Fedora Core 3 linux box.
:
: I wrote my first "test" program and finally got it to compile 
(I was
: missing the G++ compiler) and am getting the following warning 
when trying
: to compile:
: [john@slave1 ~]$ g++ hello.cpp
: In file included from 
/usr/lib/gcc/i386-redhat-linux/3.4.4/../../../../include/c++/3.4.4/backward/iostream.h:31,
:                 from hello.cpp:2:
: 
/usr/lib/gcc/i386-redhat-linux/3.4.4/../../../../include/c++/3.4.4/backward/backward_warning.h:32:2: 
warning: #warning This file includes at least one deprecated or 
antiquated header. Please consider using one of the 32 headers 
found in section 17.4.1.2 of the C++ standard. Examples include 
substituting the <X> header for the <X.h> header for C++ 
includes, or <iostream> instead of the deprecated header 
<iostream.h>. To disable this warning use -Wno-deprecated.
:
:
: Someone suggested trying "#include <iostream>" instead of 
"#include
: <iostream.h>" but that got even worse results:
: [john@slave1 ~]$ g++ hello.cpp
: hello.cpp: In function `int main()':
: hello.cpp:6: error: `cout' undeclared (first use this function)
: hello.cpp:6: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported 
only once for each function it appears in.)
:
: Is anyone here sufficiently a programmer to tell me what the 
first warning
: means? I'm guessing that C++ has changed in the last 3-5 years 
since the
: book I purchased (at the used bookstore) was printed. Maybe 
it's a linux
: thing?
: Thanks
: Maxx 


From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Fri Feb  3 13:41:58 2006
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Fri Feb  3 07:45:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
	<drucms$ler$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <slrndu6jsm.6sp.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:47:11 -0500, Pop coughed into spamcop.geeks and 
left this in <drucms$ler$1@news.spamcop.net>:

> If you ever get "G" ++ working, let us know, OK?  <G>  I must be 
> getting old; I completely missed D++, E++ and F++.
>
> Or was that a test?  Did I pass?
> Orrrrrr, uhhh, is that maybe why C++ is giving you pablums?

LOL :)

gcc = GNU C Compiler
g++ = GNU C++ Compiler

-- 
Steve

Don't be irreplaceable. If you can't be replaced, you
can't be promoted. 
From g2p4i1902 at sneakemail.com  Fri Feb  3 13:45:08 2006
From: g2p4i1902 at sneakemail.com (Mr K. Mean)
Date: Fri Feb  3 09:05:04 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
In-Reply-To: <slrndu6jsm.6sp.nobody@127.0.0.1>
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
	<drucms$ler$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrndu6jsm.6sp.nobody@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <8c3cb3-pmf.ln1@mothlight.dyndns.org>

Steven Maesslein wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:47:11 -0500, Pop coughed into spamcop.geeks and 
> left this in <drucms$ler$1@news.spamcop.net>:
> 
>> If you ever get "G" ++ working, let us know, OK?  <G>  I must be 
>> getting old; I completely missed D++, E++ and F++.
>>
>> Or was that a test?  Did I pass?
>> Orrrrrr, uhhh, is that maybe why C++ is giving you pablums?
> 
> LOL :)
> 
> gcc = GNU C Compiler
> g++ = GNU C++ Compiler
> 

I used to work at a company that wrote C++ libraries.  Once at a job 
fair, we ran across somebody who said he was not terribly familiar with 
C++ but he had done a bit of work in B.

His resume quickly worked its way to the bottom of the stack.
From mrmaxx at spamcop.net  Fri Feb  3 10:24:02 2006
From: mrmaxx at spamcop.net (Maxx Excaliber)
Date: Fri Feb  3 10:25:07 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
	<dru3fn$g73$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2006.02.03.15.23.58.258069@spamcop.net>

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:09:41 +0000, Mr K. Mean wrote:

> Maxx Excaliber wrote:
> 
>> Someone suggested trying "#include <iostream>" instead of "#include
>> <iostream.h>" but that got even worse results:
>> [john@slave1 ~]$ g++ hello.cpp
>> hello.cpp: In function `int main()':
>> hello.cpp:6: error: `cout' undeclared (first use this function)
>> hello.cpp:6: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in.)
> 
> Wow, it has been a long time for me too.  Probably 6 years since I've 
> written anything at all in C++.  But I think what it is saying is the 
> iostream.h has been deprecated in favor of the new std lib, which you 
> get by using iostream.  cout doesn't exist in that new library, or at 
> least not in that namespace.
> 
> If you look here
> http://www.network-theory.co.uk/docs/gccintro/gccintro_54.html
> 
> there is the new hello world.  Specifically
> std::cout << "Hello, world!\n";
> 
> The std:: means it is referencing the cout function in the std 
> namespace.  Here is a quick blurb on namespaces:
> http://www.winterdom.com/dev/cpp/nspaces.html
>
Ahh... Thanks for the pointer. Someone had mentioned that I needed to look
into "namespaces" but that didn't mean a thing to me... now that you have
kind of explained it, I think I have a better grasp of it and will look at
that reference you pointed me to. :-)
From mrmaxx at spamcop.net  Fri Feb  3 10:31:09 2006
From: mrmaxx at spamcop.net (Maxx Excaliber)
Date: Fri Feb  3 10:35:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
	<dru3fn$g73$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2006.02.03.15.31.05.868864@spamcop.net>

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:09:41 +0000, Mr K. Mean wrote:

> Maxx Excaliber wrote:
> 
>> Someone suggested trying "#include <iostream>" instead of "#include
>> <iostream.h>" but that got even worse results:
>> [john@slave1 ~]$ g++ hello.cpp
>> hello.cpp: In function `int main()':
>> hello.cpp:6: error: `cout' undeclared (first use this function)
>> hello.cpp:6: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in.)
> 
> Wow, it has been a long time for me too.  Probably 6 years since I've 
> written anything at all in C++.  But I think what it is saying is the 
> iostream.h has been deprecated in favor of the new std lib, which you 
> get by using iostream.  cout doesn't exist in that new library, or at 
> least not in that namespace.
> 
> If you look here
> http://www.network-theory.co.uk/docs/gccintro/gccintro_54.html
> 
> there is the new hello world.  Specifically
> std::cout << "Hello, world!\n";
> 
Just curious, do you know anything about the book they are peddling in
that link? Is that a pretty good "teach yourself GCC++" type thing or is
it mainly a reference for people who are trying to learn the difference
between, say, MS Visual C++ or Borland C++?
	Thanks
	John
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Fri Feb  3 18:39:42 2006
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Fri Feb  3 12:40:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
	<drucms$ler$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrndu6jsm.6sp.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<8c3cb3-pmf.ln1@mothlight.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <slrndu75au.csn.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:45:08 +0000, Mr K. Mean coughed into 
spamcop.geeks and left this in <8c3cb3-pmf.ln1@mothlight.dyndns.org>:

> I used to work at a company that wrote C++ libraries.  Once at a job 
> fair, we ran across somebody who said he was not terribly familiar with 
> C++ but he had done a bit of work in B.
>
> His resume quickly worked its way to the bottom of the stack.

Really?

http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/bintro.html

-- 
Steve

Notice spotted in a field:
THE FARMER ALLOWS WALKERS TO CROSS THE FIELD
FOR FREE, BUT THE BULL CHARGES
From g2p4i1902 at sneakemail.com  Fri Feb  3 23:07:56 2006
From: g2p4i1902 at sneakemail.com (Mr K. Mean)
Date: Fri Feb  3 18:10:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
In-Reply-To: <pan.2006.02.03.15.31.05.868864@spamcop.net>
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
	<dru3fn$g73$1@news.spamcop.net> <pan.2006.02.03.15.31.05.868864@spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <ds0nod$cu0$1@news.spamcop.net>

Maxx Excaliber wrote:

> Just curious, do you know anything about the book they are peddling in
> that link? Is that a pretty good "teach yourself GCC++" type thing or is
> it mainly a reference for people who are trying to learn the difference
> between, say, MS Visual C++ or Borland C++?

I don't know anything about the book, I haven't read anything about C++ 
in many years, but if Richard Stallman wrote the foreword, I assume it 
is on the up and up.  But it looks like the entire text of the book is 
accessible from that link, so I guess you can read the entire thing 
before hand.   From a quick look though, it looks like it assumes that 
you have a somewhat basic understanding of C++ and just need to know how 
to use the GCC compiler to compile your code.
From g2p4i1902 at sneakemail.com  Fri Feb  3 23:09:56 2006
From: g2p4i1902 at sneakemail.com (Mr K. Mean)
Date: Fri Feb  3 18:10:06 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
In-Reply-To: <slrndu75au.csn.nobody@127.0.0.1>
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
	<drucms$ler$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrndu6jsm.6sp.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<8c3cb3-pmf.ln1@mothlight.dyndns.org> <slrndu75au.csn.nobody@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <ds0ns4$cu0$2@news.spamcop.net>

Steven Maesslein wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:45:08 +0000, Mr K. Mean coughed into 
> spamcop.geeks and left this in <8c3cb3-pmf.ln1@mothlight.dyndns.org>:
> 
>> I used to work at a company that wrote C++ libraries.  Once at a job 
>> fair, we ran across somebody who said he was not terribly familiar with 
>> C++ but he had done a bit of work in B.
>>
>> His resume quickly worked its way to the bottom of the stack.
> 
> Really?
> 
> http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/bintro.html

So, either we made a really huge mistake and the guy was coding on 
Honeywell systems when he was still a child or he was just totally full 
of crap.
From g2p4i1902 at sneakemail.com  Fri Feb  3 23:32:59 2006
From: g2p4i1902 at sneakemail.com (Mr K. Mean)
Date: Fri Feb  3 18:35:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
In-Reply-To: <pan.2006.02.03.15.23.58.258069@spamcop.net>
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
	<dru3fn$g73$1@news.spamcop.net> <pan.2006.02.03.15.23.58.258069@spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <ds0p7b$e0q$1@news.spamcop.net>

Maxx Excaliber wrote:
>>
> Ahh... Thanks for the pointer. Someone had mentioned that I needed to look
> into "namespaces" but that didn't mean a thing to me... now that you have
> kind of explained it, I think I have a better grasp of it and will look at
> that reference you pointed me to. :-)

If you are familiar with the concept of packages in Java, it is sort of 
a similar thing.  It is a way to be able to use a common function name 
across a large number of different contexts but being able to pick out 
and specify just the one you want to use in a specific case without 
having them collide.
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Sat Feb  4 00:43:57 2006
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Fri Feb  3 18:45:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
	<drucms$ler$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrndu6jsm.6sp.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<8c3cb3-pmf.ln1@mothlight.dyndns.org> <slrndu75au.csn.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<ds0ns4$cu0$2@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <slrndu7qlt.5jt.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:09:56 +0000, Mr K. Mean coughed into 
spamcop.geeks and left this in <ds0ns4$cu0$2@news.spamcop.net>:

> So, either we made a really huge mistake and the guy was coding on 
> Honeywell systems when he was still a child or he was just totally 
> full of crap.

Well, I didn't know how old your applicant was :)

However, I have been in a situation where someone who *had* worked in B 
was basically kicked out the door because the person interviewing him 
didn't know that there was such a thing and thought he was trying to BS 
his way into a job.

I called the guy back after the person who threw him out the door had, 
himself, been thrown out the door. Understandably, he wasn't interested 
any more.

-- 
Steve

Do molecular biologists wear designer genes?
From devnull at spamcop.net  Tue Feb  7 22:51:44 2006
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Tue Feb  7 23:00:07 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Need help with a totally avoidable problem
Message-ID: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net>

I've just stated doing volunteer tech support for a local food bank.  Folk
have a heart of gold but  ....

In any case we have two PCs running Windows 2000 pro  (NT).  They can't find
the CDs, any of the documentation or even the 1.44 emergency start up disk.
(if there ever was one)

One system has a proper firewall and AV the other is a 'faith based system'
where in lies the problem

They have some mission critical data on the second (no back up since 3 +
years) AND now have either a system problem or (more likely) mal ware on the
HDD.

I can boot from the CD, from the 1.44 floppy and the HDD under normal
conditions.  What are my options to access the HDD to recover the critical
file?

I have another stand alone PC that I can use that has a good HDD to boot,
perhaps I can set the effected HDD drive up as a slave?

System is connected to the internet via a how brew Ethernet system that is a
kluge of left over equipment but as far as I can tell there is no provision
for file sharing nor do they have any active network servers.

What say ye'all.

FP


From nobody at devnull.spamcop.net  Wed Feb  8 00:34:38 2006
From: nobody at devnull.spamcop.net (Glenn Daniels)
Date: Wed Feb  8 00:35:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsbvql$pjm$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Frog Prince" mentioned:

> They have some mission critical data on the second (no back up since 3 +
> years) AND now have either a system problem or (more likely) mal ware on
the
> HDD.
>
> I can boot from the CD, from the 1.44 floppy and the HDD under normal
> conditions.  What are my options to access the HDD to recover the critical
> file?
>

Jeopardy. What is the game that presents the answer for
what question?

> I have another stand alone PC that I can use that has a good HDD to boot,
> perhaps I can set the effected HDD drive up as a slave?
>

This is perhaps your best bet.  However, changing jumpers to set the
drive as 'slave' will rarely cause the drive controller to 'see' an
altogether
different drive setup, and you could 'lose' everything.  For best results
consider adding the drive as master on the secondary IDE channel.

If you have an OS such as Win2k or XP, you have support
for NTFS and retrieving the file should be a cakewalk.  Once
you have 'rescued' that mission critical element, run 'chkdsk'
in 'fix all errors' mode and reboot.  Then scan the drive for
malware.  Depending on what has been fixed in the process,
the OS may boot normally when returned to its original mobo.

If /you/ don't personally have 2k or XP, you mentioned that /they/
do:  If need be, use that OS/HDD as the mothership to 'rescue'
the ailing system.  Your biggest hurdle is simply that an NTFS
partition will only be visible from an NTFS based OS.  So
if you are in 98SE, you will not be able to access the HDD
as will appear not to have any valid partition.

> System is connected to the internet via a how brew Ethernet system that is
a
> kluge of left over equipment but as far as I can tell there is no
provision
> for file sharing nor do they have any active network servers.
>

Where are you going here?  You need to get the HDD/OS fixed first,
then you could set up the LAN and copy the valued data from one
machine to another.  But your starting premise seemed to be that
the ailing system would not boot, although you stated that it would
boot normally. That would be: Why am I confused?

Good luck,
-g


From kenbrody at spamcop.net  Wed Feb  8 10:13:45 2006
From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody)
Date: Wed Feb  8 10:20:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <43EA0AA9.C01EB297@spamcop.net>

Frog Prince wrote:
> 
> I've just stated doing volunteer tech support for a local food bank.  Folk
> have a heart of gold but  ....
> 
> In any case we have two PCs running Windows 2000 pro  (NT).  They can't find
> the CDs, any of the documentation or even the 1.44 emergency start up disk.
> (if there ever was one)
> 
> One system has a proper firewall and AV the other is a 'faith based system'
> where in lies the problem

Can you make an emergency boot floppy from the functional system?

> They have some mission critical data on the second (no back up since 3 +
> years) AND now have either a system problem or (more likely) mal ware on the
> HDD.

Don't you love the combination of "mission critical data" and "what's
a backup?"

> I can boot from the CD, from the 1.44 floppy and the HDD under normal
> conditions.  What are my options to access the HDD to recover the critical
> file?

Can I assume that the system will no longer boot from the HD?

> I have another stand alone PC that I can use that has a good HDD to boot,
> perhaps I can set the effected HDD drive up as a slave?
> 
> System is connected to the internet via a how brew Ethernet system that is a
> kluge of left over equipment but as far as I can tell there is no provision
> for file sharing nor do they have any active network servers.
> 
> What say ye'all.

Physically connecting the HD to the other computer is certainly one way
of going about it.  (And if the system can't boot anymore from the HD,
it may just be the quickest/easiest way.)

If the system can boot, and still has net connectivity, one kludge would
be to e-mail the file to yourself, and then retrieve it from e-mail via
the other computer.

Are the computers physically networked together (even if there is no
sharing currently set up)?

-- 
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
| Kenneth J. Brody        | www.hvcomputer.com |                             |
| kenbrody/at\spamcop.net | www.fptech.com     | #include <std_disclaimer.h> |
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
Don't e-mail me at: <mailto:ThisIsASpamTrap@gmail.com>

From devnull at spamcop.net  Wed Feb  8 17:31:16 2006
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Wed Feb  8 17:35:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Frog Prince"

| I've just stated doing volunteer tech support for a local food bank.  Folk
| have a heart of gold but  ....
<snip>

Answering my own post:

Thanks for all the input.

Now a follow up:

Got all the toys, software and hardware assembled to do the deed in the most
impressive manner.

About 2 hours into the project one of the cutest young volunteers I'd seen
(looks like I expect my oldest new granddaughter should  when she will be
22) comes by and mentions:

*SYT:     'so you got it to quit making that horrible noise?'

FP:    What noise?

SYT:  Sounds off and on, just like the '75 VW junker Bug I had when I was in
school. (does an impression of the noise -- rancus but still cute)

Light goes on:  Makes a lot of inquires, basically this 'noise' has been
getting worse for about 6-8 weeks.

BTW can you fix it? Next question:  can you recover the files?

FP response:  Only if I can get this computer into the Lazarus Mode.

SYT:   Slow contemplative response:   Never ...heard ... of ... that ...
what's involved?

FP: The only way this drive and the data it contained, is coming back to
life is with divine intervention.

The was a student studying at the next table who about choked on his coffee.

Next I see him I'll have to explain the meaning of C&C warnings

*SYT = sweet young thing

Still in all I greatly appreciate the response.  I learned something new and
remembered a few more that were in the recesses of my memory.

I carried the HDD home, going to play with it a bit.  Any ideas at all on
how one might recover the data?




From nobody at spamcop.net  Wed Feb  8 17:44:40 2006
From: nobody at spamcop.net (indigo)
Date: Wed Feb  8 17:45:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsds8p$ctr$1@news.spamcop.net>



Frog Prince wrote:
> I carried the HDD home, going to play with it a bit.  Any ideas at
> all on how one might recover the data?

Oy, if you've got a dead drive (hardware failure) you're in a heap of
dung......IIRC there are companies that can recover data from the disk, but
it costs hundreds of bucks. Maybe you can smack it a few times and get it to
spin up one final time?


From kenbrody at spamcop.net  Wed Feb  8 19:16:48 2006
From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody)
Date: Wed Feb  8 19:25:08 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net>

Frog Prince wrote:
[...]
> *SYT:     'so you got it to quit making that horrible noise?'
> 
> FP:    What noise?
> 
> SYT:  Sounds off and on, just like the '75 VW junker Bug I had when I was in
> school. (does an impression of the noise -- rancus but still cute)
> 
> Light goes on:  Makes a lot of inquires, basically this 'noise' has been
> getting worse for about 6-8 weeks.
[...]
> I carried the HDD home, going to play with it a bit.  Any ideas at all on
> how one might recover the data?

Does the drive no longer spin up?  I've had some experience with drives
like that, which can actually enter Lazarus Mode by giving it a gentle
(but firm) twist along the same axis as it normally spins just after you
power up the system.  This applies enough torque to allow the drive to
get unstuck, and once unstuck, will continue spinning up as normal.  If
this procedure works, _immediately_ back up whatever you need from it,
as you never know how long the drive will last, or if Lazarus will visit
you again.

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| WARNING! DISCLAIMER!  ETC ETC ETC!                                   |
|                                                                      |
| Entering Lazarus Mode with the above method may make things worse if |
| you do it wrong!                                                     |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Of course, if it's simply "dead", then you may be SOL unless they have
the money to hire a company that specializes in recovering data from
dead drives.

Given the noise issue, I would say it's more likely mechanical than
electrical, so you may luck out with the first method.


-- 
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
| Kenneth J. Brody        | www.hvcomputer.com |                             |
| kenbrody/at\spamcop.net | www.fptech.com     | #include <std_disclaimer.h> |
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
Don't e-mail me at: <mailto:ThisIsASpamTrap@gmail.com>

From devnull at spamcop.net  Wed Feb  8 21:30:47 2006
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Wed Feb  8 21:35:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>


"Kenneth Brody" <kenbrody@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net...
| Frog Prince wrote:
| [...]
| > *SYT:     'so you got it to quit making that horrible noise?'
| >
| > FP:    What noise?
| >
| > SYT:  Sounds off and on, just like the '75 VW junker Bug I had when I
was in
| > school. (does an impression of the noise -- rancus but still cute)
| >
| > Light goes on:  Makes a lot of inquires, basically this 'noise' has been
| > getting worse for about 6-8 weeks.
| [...]
| > I carried the HDD home, going to play with it a bit.  Any ideas at all
on
| > how one might recover the data?
|
| Does the drive no longer spin up?  I've had some experience with drives
| like that, which can actually enter Lazarus Mode by giving it a gentle
| (but firm) twist along the same axis as it normally spins just after you
| power up the system.  This applies enough torque to allow the drive to
| get unstuck, and once unstuck, will continue spinning up as normal.  If
| this procedure works, _immediately_ back up whatever you need from it,
| as you never know how long the drive will last, or if Lazarus will visit
| you again.
|
| +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| | WARNING! DISCLAIMER!  ETC ETC ETC!                                   |
| |                                                                      |
| | Entering Lazarus Mode with the above method may make things worse if |
| | you do it wrong!                                                     |
| +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|
| Of course, if it's simply "dead", then you may be SOL unless they have
| the money to hire a company that specializes in recovering data from
| dead drives.
|
| Given the noise issue, I would say it's more likely mechanical than
| electrical, so you may luck out with the first method.

Money is not an option as these folk take a lot of small contributions
coupled with sheer force of will and a lot of volunteers make it do
multiples of  what one would expect.

frankly I did find a back up of the needed file but that was the end of
September so some poor volunteer is going to have to finger bone the data
from Sept forward.

Seems to spin up but unable to access the data on the drive.


From minius.nospam.- at _nomail_pfi.lt_bvcm  Thu Feb  9 07:04:17 2006
From: minius.nospam.- at _nomail_pfi.lt_bvcm (Mindaugas)
Date: Thu Feb  9 02:05:04 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsephb$18b$2@news.spamcop.net>

Don't use drive too long if data is unacessible(bad setors are developing),  
this may cause total loss of data if broken heads scrambles surface 
(grinding noise, permament or very frequent head recalibration with 
inaccessible data). In this case only data recovery company can help.
 

"Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote in
news:dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net: 

> 
> "Kenneth Brody" <kenbrody@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> news:43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net...
>| Frog Prince wrote:
>| [...]
>| > *SYT:     'so you got it to quit making that horrible noise?'
>| >
>| > FP:    What noise?
>| >
>| > SYT:  Sounds off and on, just like the '75 VW junker Bug I had when
>| > I 
> was in
>| > school. (does an impression of the noise -- rancus but still cute)
>| >
>| > Light goes on:  Makes a lot of inquires, basically this 'noise' has
>| > been getting worse for about 6-8 weeks.
>| [...]
>| > I carried the HDD home, going to play with it a bit.  Any ideas at
>| > all 
> on
>| > how one might recover the data?
>|
>| Does the drive no longer spin up?  I've had some experience with
>| drives like that, which can actually enter Lazarus Mode by giving it
>| a gentle (but firm) twist along the same axis as it normally spins
>| just after you power up the system.  This applies enough torque to
>| allow the drive to get unstuck, and once unstuck, will continue
>| spinning up as normal.  If this procedure works, _immediately_ back
>| up whatever you need from it, as you never know how long the drive
>| will last, or if Lazarus will visit you again.
>|
>| +---------------------------------------------------------------------
>| -+ 
>| | WARNING! DISCLAIMER!  ETC ETC ETC!                                 
>| |  | 
>| |                                                                    
>| |                             | 
>| | Entering Lazarus Mode with the above method may make things worse
>| | if | you do it wrong!                                              
>| |       | 
>| +---------------------------------------------------------------------
>| -+ 
>|
>| Of course, if it's simply "dead", then you may be SOL unless they
>| have the money to hire a company that specializes in recovering data
>| from dead drives.
>|
>| Given the noise issue, I would say it's more likely mechanical than
>| electrical, so you may luck out with the first method.
> 
> Money is not an option as these folk take a lot of small contributions
> coupled with sheer force of will and a lot of volunteers make it do
> multiples of  what one would expect.
> 
> frankly I did find a back up of the needed file but that was the end
> of September so some poor volunteer is going to have to finger bone
> the data from Sept forward.
> 
> Seems to spin up but unable to access the data on the drive.
> 
> 
> 

From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Thu Feb  9 11:42:30 2006
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Thu Feb  9 05:45:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsephb$18b$2@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <slrndum74m.4cm.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 07:04:17 +0000 (UTC), Mindaugas coughed into 
spamcop.geeks and left this in <dsephb$18b$2@news.spamcop.net>:

> { snip top-posted, untrimmed message }

Would it be too much to ask of you to learn how to post?

-- 
Steve
From mrmaxx at spamcop.net  Thu Feb  9 16:09:36 2006
From: mrmaxx at spamcop.net (Maxx Excaliber)
Date: Thu Feb  9 16:10:06 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
	<dru3fn$g73$1@news.spamcop.net> <pan.2006.02.03.15.31.05.868864@spamcop.net>
	<ds0nod$cu0$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2006.02.09.21.09.33.53830@spamcop.net>

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:07:56 +0000, Mr K. Mean wrote:
> 
> I don't know anything about the book, I haven't read anything about C++ 
> in many years, but if Richard Stallman wrote the foreword, I assume it 
> is on the up and up.  But it looks like the entire text of the book is 
> accessible from that link, so I guess you can read the entire thing 
> before hand.   From a quick look though, it looks like it assumes that 
> you have a somewhat basic understanding of C++ and just need to know how 
> to use the GCC compiler to compile your code.
>
Yeah... I have a pretty fair understanding of how to *compile* code, I
want to learn how to *write* it. :-)
From mrmaxx at spamcop.net  Thu Feb  9 16:10:50 2006
From: mrmaxx at spamcop.net (Maxx Excaliber)
Date: Thu Feb  9 16:15:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
	<dru3fn$g73$1@news.spamcop.net> <pan.2006.02.03.15.23.58.258069@spamcop.net>
	<ds0p7b$e0q$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2006.02.09.21.10.49.770500@spamcop.net>

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:32:59 +0000, Mr K. Mean wrote:
> 
> If you are familiar with the concept of packages in Java, it is sort of 
> a similar thing.  It is a way to be able to use a common function name 
> across a large number of different contexts but being able to pick out 
> and specify just the one you want to use in a specific case without 
> having them collide.
>
I have a VERY vague understanding of "packages" in Java. I'm not (yet) a
programmer... I'd like to learn to be one, so I can make myself more
employable, but I'm not one yet. :-)
From joegill at removethis  Thu Feb  9 17:32:12 2006
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Thu Feb  9 17:35:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net...

> | Given the noise issue, I would say it's more likely mechanical than
> | electrical, so you may luck out with the first method.
>
> Money is not an option as these folk take a lot of small contributions
> coupled with sheer force of will and a lot of volunteers make it do
> multiples of  what one would expect.
>
> frankly I did find a back up of the needed file but that was the end of
> September so some poor volunteer is going to have to finger bone the data
> from Sept forward.
>
> Seems to spin up but unable to access the data on the drive.
>

<SNIP>

1) Does this happen to be a Western Digital drive? If so is the noise a
'clicking' variety?
This may be a case for the 'deep freeze' treatment, after all other option
fail!

2) To when mounted in your system, what did you see? I know you said "unable
to access the data on the drive", but what exactly did you see?  No message?
No action? No response? What's in the event log?

3) I know the org has 'shallow pockets', but what is the value of the data
on the drive? If for example, it contains the name/addresses/phones/ of all
the people who have 'deep pockets' who support the org, it may be a case of
investing $xxx to get back the list(s).

4) Some(I know at least one) of the recovery companies that does 'remote'
recoveries on your PC.
(Unmunge my address to request the name that I used)

5) Another possibilty is to find someone who has an 'image copy' program and
copy the data off the drive, telling the program to attempt to copy all
sectors. Take that copy and work with it. Start with CHKDSK /F on the COPY !



From khhqdty02 at sneakemail.com  Thu Feb  9 23:24:19 2006
From: khhqdty02 at sneakemail.com (Mr K. Mean)
Date: Thu Feb  9 18:25:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: G++ question
In-Reply-To: <pan.2006.02.09.21.10.49.770500@spamcop.net>
References: <pan.2006.02.02.22.41.57.913377@spamcop.net>
	<dru3fn$g73$1@news.spamcop.net> <pan.2006.02.03.15.23.58.258069@spamcop.net>
	<ds0p7b$e0q$1@news.spamcop.net> <pan.2006.02.09.21.10.49.770500@spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsgiv4$961$1@news.spamcop.net>

Maxx Excaliber wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:32:59 +0000, Mr K. Mean wrote:
>> If you are familiar with the concept of packages in Java, it is sort of 
>> a similar thing.  It is a way to be able to use a common function name 
>> across a large number of different contexts but being able to pick out 
>> and specify just the one you want to use in a specific case without 
>> having them collide.
>>
> I have a VERY vague understanding of "packages" in Java. I'm not (yet) a
> programmer... I'd like to learn to be one, so I can make myself more
> employable, but I'm not one yet. :-)

I've heard a lot of good things about Bruce Eckel's Thinking in Java 
book, which is a free download.
http://www.codeguru.com/java/tij/

Apparently he has a C++ one too.  I imagine that one is pretty decent.
http://mindview.net/Books/DownloadSites

If you are feeling particularly inspired about C++, you can't really go 
wrong if you go right to the source.  Everybody should go through Bjarne 
Stroustrup's The C++ Programming Language at some point in their life.

If you really want to be more employable in Java, download Eclipse and 
figure out how the tools work.  I used to be a command line and text 
file editor person, but the deployment and all the supporting code has 
just gotten too complicated, so being comfortable with a good tool is 
pretty important anymore.
From devnull at spamcop.net  Thu Feb  9 20:29:37 2006
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Thu Feb  9 20:40:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net>


"Joe Gill" <joegill@removethis@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net...
|
| "Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote in message
| news:dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net...
|
| > | Given the noise issue, I would say it's more likely mechanical than
| > | electrical, so you may luck out with the first method.
| >
| > Money is not an option as these folk take a lot of small contributions
| > coupled with sheer force of will and a lot of volunteers make it do
| > multiples of  what one would expect.
| >
| > frankly I did find a back up of the needed file but that was the end of
| > September so some poor volunteer is going to have to finger bone the
data
| > from Sept forward.
| >
| > Seems to spin up but unable to access the data on the drive.
| >
|
| <SNIP>
|
| 1) Does this happen to be a Western Digital drive? If so is the noise a
| 'clicking' variety?
| This may be a case for the 'deep freeze' treatment, after all other option
| fail!

No Quantum.  Label says it's a Dell P/N 00019tuy-12542-015-03t0

| 2) To when mounted in your system, what did you see? I know you said
"unable
| to access the data on the drive", but what exactly did you see?  No
message?
| No action? No response? What's in the event log?

The computer has a generic error message that while it does not specifically
say so in retrospect the error message was your drive is toast.

| 3) I know the org has 'shallow pockets', but what is the value of the data
| on the drive? If for example, it contains the name/addresses/phones/ of
all
| the people who have 'deep pockets' who support the org, it may be a case
of
| investing $xxx to get back the list(s).

Records are a list of food stamp recipients, the data is in very poor
quality hard copy.  Will require a lot of work on the part of a willing
volunteer.

| 4) Some(I know at least one) of the recovery companies that does 'remote'
| recoveries on your PC.
| (Unmunge my address to request the name that I used)
|
| 5) Another possibility is to find someone who has an 'image copy' program
and
| copy the data off the drive, telling the program to attempt to copy all
| sectors. Take that copy and work with it. Start with CHKDSK /F on the COPY
!

How to do this if the system will not recognize the drive?  I've put this
drive on another computer running the same OS as a secondary and get an
error message that the drive needs to be formatted.


From nobody at spamcop.net  Fri Feb 10 12:24:39 2006
From: nobody at spamcop.net (indigo)
Date: Fri Feb 10 12:25:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsii8o$l3r$1@news.spamcop.net>



Frog Prince wrote:
> How to do this if the system will not recognize the drive?  I've put
> this drive on another computer running the same OS as a secondary and
> get an error message that the drive needs to be formatted.

Are you sure you don't have a FAT32/NTFS problem? That would lead to the
error msg you're seeing, IIRC.


From post.please.this.email.is.not.valid at example.com  Fri Feb 10 12:13:05 2006
From: post.please.this.email.is.not.valid at example.com (DougW)
Date: Fri Feb 10 13:15:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsii8o$l3r$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsil3d$n0i$1@news.spamcop.net>

indigo did pass the time by typing:
> Frog Prince wrote:
>> How to do this if the system will not recognize the drive?  I've put
>> this drive on another computer running the same OS as a secondary and
>> get an error message that the drive needs to be formatted.
>
> Are you sure you don't have a FAT32/NTFS problem? That would lead to the
> error msg you're seeing, IIRC.

Not sure if this applies in your case but compooters with older BIOS
required drive unique boot information on the drive (Western Digital for one)
that had to be installed before the OS could see the hard drive.  These have
to be removed from the drive before moving it to another system.

-- 
DougW 


From devnull at spamcop.net  Fri Feb 10 13:38:51 2006
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Fri Feb 10 13:45:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsii8o$l3r$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsil3d$n0i$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsimnb$nt4$2@news.spamcop.net>


"DougW" <post.please.this.email.is.not.valid@example.com> wrote in message
news:dsil3d$n0i$1@news.spamcop.net...
| indigo did pass the time by typing:
| > Frog Prince wrote:
| >> How to do this if the system will not recognize the drive?  I've put
| >> this drive on another computer running the same OS as a secondary and
| >> get an error message that the drive needs to be formatted.
| >
| > Are you sure you don't have a FAT32/NTFS problem? That would lead to the
| > error msg you're seeing, IIRC.
|
| Not sure if this applies in your case but compooters with older BIOS
| required drive unique boot information on the drive (Western Digital for
one)
| that had to be installed before the OS could see the hard drive.  These
have
| to be removed from the drive before moving it to another system.

Would that be an issue if the drive is now a secondary or slave drive?


From devnull at spamcop.net  Fri Feb 10 13:40:30 2006
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Fri Feb 10 13:45:08 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsii8o$l3r$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsimnm$nt4$3@news.spamcop.net>


"indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:dsii8o$l3r$1@news.spamcop.net...
|
|
| Frog Prince wrote:
| > How to do this if the system will not recognize the drive?  I've put
| > this drive on another computer running the same OS as a secondary and
| > get an error message that the drive needs to be formatted.
|
| Are you sure you don't have a FAT32/NTFS problem? That would lead to the
| error msg you're seeing, IIRC.

Not sure how to answer that question but the OS is Windows2000 pro and I've
tried to access as a secondary drive on another machine with the same OS.

BTW the HDD from the second machine boots on the 'bad' machine.


From post.please.this.email.is.not.valid at example.com  Fri Feb 10 12:52:39 2006
From: post.please.this.email.is.not.valid at example.com (DougW)
Date: Fri Feb 10 13:55:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsii8o$l3r$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsil3d$n0i$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsimnb$nt4$2@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsindj$oap$1@news.spamcop.net>

Frog Prince did pass the time by typing:
> "DougW" wrote ...
>> indigo did pass the time by typing:
>>> Frog Prince wrote:
>>>> How to do this if the system will not recognize the drive?  I've put
>>>> this drive on another computer running the same OS as a secondary and
>>>> get an error message that the drive needs to be formatted.
>>>
>>> Are you sure you don't have a FAT32/NTFS problem? That would lead to the
>>> error msg you're seeing, IIRC.
>>
>> Not sure if this applies in your case but compooters with older BIOS
>> required drive unique boot information on the drive (Western Digital for one)
>> that had to be installed before the OS could see the hard drive.  These have
>> to be removed from the drive before moving it to another system.
>
> Would that be an issue if the drive is now a secondary or slave drive?

Yep.  Without the drivers the OS has no idea what to do with the drive.
If windoze ever gets confused it just resorts to asking if you want to format it.

-- 
DougW 


From none at domain.invalid  Fri Feb 10 10:57:35 2006
From: none at domain.invalid (Anonymous)
Date: Fri Feb 10 14:00:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsii8o$l3r$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsimnm$nt4$3@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsinmu$ode$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote in message 
news:dsimnm$nt4$3@news.spamcop.net...
> Not sure how to answer that question but the OS is Windows2000 pro and 
> I've
> tried to access as a secondary drive on another machine with the same 
> OS.
>
> BTW the HDD from the second machine boots on the 'bad' machine.

There are a few of things you can try...

You can get a program that will allow you to make low-level, manual 
accesses to the hard drive, and pull whatever data you need off the drive 
(even if the drive is not recognized by the OS as formatted)... this is a 
time consuming and tedious process.

If your MBR (Master Boot Record) is all that's messed up on the drive, you 
can run the fixmbr command and hopefully fix it so the drive can be 
accessed again.

You can get SpinRite and see if that will fix things.

From borgholio at storymind.com  Fri Feb 10 11:08:32 2006
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Fri Feb 10 14:10:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Troubleshooting an XP BSOD
Message-ID: <dsiobf$opn$1@news.spamcop.net>

This one is a bit of a puzzle.  I've been playing an online game for a month 
or two and once in awhile I'll get a BSOD.  Checking the game's online 
forums seem to indicate that it's a sound issue.  I've tried several 
different versions of my sound card drivers, and reducing my hardware 
acceleration.  So far I haven't had any more BSODs while I was playing the 
game...but the strangest thing happened.  I woke up this morning and noticed 
that my computer had rebooted overnight.  I checked the system log and sure 
enough:

0x00000019 (0x00000020, 0x86477000, 0x86477928, 0x0b250000)

Now seeing as how the computer wasn't doing squat at 2AM, and I was in bed, 
I don't see what could have happened.  Every online resource points to a 
device driver...yeah that narrows it down a bit.  :-/
From nobody at spamcop.net  Fri Feb 10 14:08:50 2006
From: nobody at spamcop.net (indigo)
Date: Fri Feb 10 14:10:04 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsii8o$l3r$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsimnm$nt4$3@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsioc2$ov2$1@news.spamcop.net>



Frog Prince wrote:
> "indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> |
> | Are you sure you don't have a FAT32/NTFS problem? That would lead
> | to the error msg you're seeing, IIRC.
>
> Not sure how to answer that question but the OS is Windows2000 pro
> and I've tried to access as a secondary drive on another machine with
> the same OS.

If the machine was upgraded from Win98x you probably still have FAT32
partitions. When I upgraded to 2000 I bit the bullet and reformatted to NTFS
(cost a lot of time and labor to reinstall every single piece of software,
that's why a lot of folks don't do it).

>
> BTW the HDD from the second machine boots on the 'bad' machine.

Others have chimed in with different explanations, so mine is probably not
the failure mechanism you're seeing. IIRC, when I rebuilt my machine last
winter I had to reflash the BIOS because it had lost track of what kind of
drive I had (#cylinders etc) and the machine wouldn't boot (or maybe it was
because I installed a new MoBo, I forget, but it had me tearing my hair out
until I resolved it, that's for sure!)


From joegill at removethis  Fri Feb 10 18:02:09 2006
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Fri Feb 10 18:05:04 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsj65e$2ic$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net...
>
> "Joe Gill" <joegill@removethis@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net...
> |
> | "Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> | news:dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net...
> |
> | > | Given the noise issue, I would say it's more likely mechanical than
> | > | electrical, so you may luck out with the first method.
> | >
> | > Money is not an option as these folk take a lot of small contributions
> | > coupled with sheer force of will and a lot of volunteers make it do
> | > multiples of  what one would expect.
> | >
> | > frankly I did find a back up of the needed file but that was the end
of
> | > September so some poor volunteer is going to have to finger bone the
> data
> | > from Sept forward.
> | >
> | > Seems to spin up but unable to access the data on the drive.
> | >
> |
> | <SNIP>
> |
> | 1) Does this happen to be a Western Digital drive? If so is the noise a
> | 'clicking' variety?
> | This may be a case for the 'deep freeze' treatment, after all other
option
> | fail!
>
> No Quantum.  Label says it's a Dell P/N 00019tuy-12542-015-03t0
>
> | 2) To when mounted in your system, what did you see? I know you said
> "unable
> | to access the data on the drive", but what exactly did you see?  No
> message?
> | No action? No response? What's in the event log?
>
> The computer has a generic error message that while it does not
specifically
> say so in retrospect the error message was your drive is toast.
>
> | 3) I know the org has 'shallow pockets', but what is the value of the
data
> | on the drive? If for example, it contains the name/addresses/phones/ of
> all
> | the people who have 'deep pockets' who support the org, it may be a case
> of
> | investing $xxx to get back the list(s).
>
> Records are a list of food stamp recipients, the data is in very poor
> quality hard copy.  Will require a lot of work on the part of a willing
> volunteer.
>
> | 4) Some(I know at least one) of the recovery companies that does
'remote'
> | recoveries on your PC.
> | (Unmunge my address to request the name that I used)
> |
> | 5) Another possibility is to find someone who has an 'image copy'
program
> and
> | copy the data off the drive, telling the program to attempt to copy all
> | sectors. Take that copy and work with it. Start with CHKDSK /F on the
COPY
> !
>
> How to do this if the system will not recognize the drive?  I've put this
> drive on another computer running the same OS as a secondary and get an
> error message that the drive needs to be formatted.
>
>

1) Did the old system at least 'recoginize' the drive?

2) How big is the drive? It may be a case of the drive not being recognized
correctly by the new system, due to size, and/or BIOS restrictions.

3) Many of the vendors have software that allow you to
check-out(not-destructively) the drive! Maxtor now supports the Quantum
line.. Look @ the POWERMAX utility on their site, It runs from a boot CD,
and runs with low-level disk commands...

4) When you attempt to access on the new system, is there any mechanical
noise from the drive or does it feel like the drive is 'spinning up'?




From devnull at spamcop.net  Fri Feb 10 18:57:54 2006
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Fri Feb 10 19:10:04 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsj65e$2ic$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsj9p3$4qr$2@news.spamcop.net>


"Joe Gill" <snip >

| > How to do this if the system will not recognize the drive?  I've put
this
| > drive on another computer running the same OS as a secondary and get an
| > error message that the drive needs to be formatted.
| >
| >
|
| 1) Did the old system at least 'recoginize' the drive?

For a time but I wasted valuable time looking for a virus when I should have
been working to salvage the data (0ne file actually)
|
| 2) How big is the drive? It may be a case of the drive not being
recognized
| correctly by the new system, due to size, and/or BIOS restrictions.

Duplicate computer (to the extent possible) with the same make and model HDD
|
| 3) Many of the vendors have software that allow you to
| check-out(not-destructively) the drive! Maxtor now supports the Quantum
| line.. Look @ the POWERMAX utility on their site, It runs from a boot CD,
| and runs with low-level disk commands...

Does that distroy the data?  Also I think PowerMax will only work on Maxtor
drives but I'll give it a try.
|
| 4) When you attempt to access on the new system, is there any mechanical
| noise from the drive or does it feel like the drive is 'spinning up'?

No noise and there is the spin up sound but no access.

At this point they are resigned to finger boneing the data into a new file.
My efforts are basically my attempt to salvage but more for the experiance I
might gain.


From kenbrody at spamcop.net  Sun Feb 12 20:36:59 2006
From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody)
Date: Sun Feb 12 20:40:04 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Troubleshooting an XP BSOD
References: <dsiobf$opn$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <43EFE2BB.682FC138@spamcop.net>

Borgholio wrote:
> 
> This one is a bit of a puzzle.  I've been playing an online game for a month
> or two and once in awhile I'll get a BSOD.  Checking the game's online
> forums seem to indicate that it's a sound issue.  I've tried several
> different versions of my sound card drivers, and reducing my hardware
> acceleration.  So far I haven't had any more BSODs while I was playing the
> game...but the strangest thing happened.  I woke up this morning and noticed
> that my computer had rebooted overnight.  I checked the system log and sure
> enough:
> 
> 0x00000019 (0x00000020, 0x86477000, 0x86477928, 0x0b250000)
> 
> Now seeing as how the computer wasn't doing squat at 2AM, and I was in bed,
> I don't see what could have happened.  Every online resource points to a
> device driver...yeah that narrows it down a bit.  :-/

This probably isn't too helpful, but:

  http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/w2kmsgs/1140.asp

  [...]
  STOP: 0x00000019 (parameter, parameter, parameter, parameter) BAD_POOL_HEADER
  [...]

"BAD_POOL_HEADER" and "This indicates an invalid pool header" are the
descriptions.  Not very helpful, unless your computer went for a swim
overnight.

-- 
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
| Kenneth J. Brody        | www.hvcomputer.com |                             |
| kenbrody/at\spamcop.net | www.fptech.com     | #include <std_disclaimer.h> |
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
Don't e-mail me at: <mailto:ThisIsASpamTrap@gmail.com>

From user at domain.invalid  Sun Feb 12 21:32:08 2006
From: user at domain.invalid (User)
Date: Sun Feb 12 22:35:06 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Troubleshooting an XP BSOD
In-Reply-To: <43EFE2BB.682FC138@spamcop.net>
References: <dsiobf$opn$1@news.spamcop.net> <43EFE2BB.682FC138@spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsoujg$5dm$1@news.spamcop.net>

On 12.02.2006 19:36, Kenneth Brody wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> Borgholio wrote:
>> 
>> This one is a bit of a puzzle.  I've been playing an online game for a month
>> or two and once in awhile I'll get a BSOD.  Checking the game's online
>> forums seem to indicate that it's a sound issue.  I've tried several
>> different versions of my sound card drivers, and reducing my hardware
>> acceleration.  So far I haven't had any more BSODs while I was playing the
>> game...but the strangest thing happened.  I woke up this morning and noticed
>> that my computer had rebooted overnight.  I checked the system log and sure
>> enough:
>> 
>> 0x00000019 (0x00000020, 0x86477000, 0x86477928, 0x0b250000)
>> 
>> Now seeing as how the computer wasn't doing squat at 2AM, and I was in bed,
>> I don't see what could have happened.  Every online resource points to a
>> device driver...yeah that narrows it down a bit.  :-/
> 
> This probably isn't too helpful, but:
> 
>   http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/w2kmsgs/1140.asp
> 
>   [...]
>   STOP: 0x00000019 (parameter, parameter, parameter, parameter) BAD_POOL_HEADER
>   [...]
> 
> "BAD_POOL_HEADER" and "This indicates an invalid pool header" are the
> descriptions.  Not very helpful, unless your computer went for a swim
> overnight.
> 

Try this:

http://www2.geek.com/discus/messages/27/12281.html?1121370842
From joegill at removethis  Mon Feb 13 09:10:59 2006
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Mon Feb 13 09:15:05 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsj65e$2ic$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsj9p3$4qr$2@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsq45d$p7k$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:dsj9p3$4qr$2@news.spamcop.net...
>
> "Joe Gill" <snip >
>
> | > How to do this if the system will not recognize the drive?  I've put
> this
> | > drive on another computer running the same OS as a secondary and get
an
> | > error message that the drive needs to be formatted.
> | >
> | >
> |
> | 1) Did the old system at least 'recoginize' the drive?
>
> For a time but I wasted valuable time looking for a virus when I should
have
> been working to salvage the data (0ne file actually)
> |
> | 2) How big is the drive? It may be a case of the drive not being
> recognized
> | correctly by the new system, due to size, and/or BIOS restrictions.
>
> Duplicate computer (to the extent possible) with the same make and model
HDD
> |
> | 3) Many of the vendors have software that allow you to
> | check-out(not-destructively) the drive! Maxtor now supports the Quantum
> | line.. Look @ the POWERMAX utility on their site, It runs from a boot
CD,
> | and runs with low-level disk commands...
>
> Does that distroy the data?  Also I think PowerMax will only work on
Maxtor
> drives but I'll give it a try.
> |
> | 4) When you attempt to access on the new system, is there any mechanical
> | noise from the drive or does it feel like the drive is 'spinning up'?
>
> No noise and there is the spin up sound but no access.
>
> At this point they are resigned to finger boneing the data into a new
file.
> My efforts are basically my attempt to salvage but more for the experiance
I
> might gain.
>
>

I am assuming that the BIOS recognized the drive and you went through that
process...

Since there have been no other updates... I am not sure where you are on
playing with the drive....
You may want to try the 'freezer bag' trick, which has helped many users but
especially WD drives...

But this goes with the disclaimer that this method, IF it works, will
usually work 1-2 passes and then you end up with a really dead drive.

***************************************************
* This is a method of LAST RESORT                                *
***************************************************

1) Reserve a block a time or map out the time based on the items below.
2) Get a good 'zip-loc' type freezer bag.
3) Work in a non-humid area.
4) Removed drive and place in bag, squeezing out as much air as possible,
and seal it
5) Place is freezer for one hour (Some sites say 30 minutes, some 60, some 4
hours)
6) Remove drive from freezer and bag and place in PC..
7) If you can now access it, you must move QUICKLY, you may be able to
access for a while, and you may not...
8) If you cannot access it, try a couple times, over the next half hour,
power-up / power-down


You can look around the web for references/stories about this technique


From borgholio at storymind.com  Mon Feb 13 10:18:48 2006
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Mon Feb 13 13:20:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Troubleshooting an XP BSOD
In-Reply-To: <dsoujg$5dm$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <dsiobf$opn$1@news.spamcop.net> <43EFE2BB.682FC138@spamcop.net>
	<dsoujg$5dm$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsqiha$1n5$1@news.spamcop.net>

User wrote:
> On 12.02.2006 19:36, Kenneth Brody wrote:
> 
>  --- Original Message ---
> 
> 
>>Borgholio wrote:
>>
>>>This one is a bit of a puzzle.  I've been playing an online game for a month
>>>or two and once in awhile I'll get a BSOD.  Checking the game's online
>>>forums seem to indicate that it's a sound issue.  I've tried several
>>>different versions of my sound card drivers, and reducing my hardware
>>>acceleration.  So far I haven't had any more BSODs while I was playing the
>>>game...but the strangest thing happened.  I woke up this morning and noticed
>>>that my computer had rebooted overnight.  I checked the system log and sure
>>>enough:
>>>
>>>0x00000019 (0x00000020, 0x86477000, 0x86477928, 0x0b250000)
>>>
>>>Now seeing as how the computer wasn't doing squat at 2AM, and I was in bed,
>>>I don't see what could have happened.  Every online resource points to a
>>>device driver...yeah that narrows it down a bit.  :-/
>>
>>This probably isn't too helpful, but:
>>
>>  http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/w2kmsgs/1140.asp
>>
>>  [...]
>>  STOP: 0x00000019 (parameter, parameter, parameter, parameter) BAD_POOL_HEADER
>>  [...]
>>
>>"BAD_POOL_HEADER" and "This indicates an invalid pool header" are the
>>descriptions.  Not very helpful, unless your computer went for a swim
>>overnight.
>>
> 
> 
> Try this:
> 
> http://www2.geek.com/discus/messages/27/12281.html?1121370842

Yeah yet again, it's a "random" device driver error.  I still have had not 
any more crashes since my last tweak, but since my sound card is the only 
thing I've been messing with, I think that's where the problem may lay.  If 
I get another crash, I may just disable onboard sound and grab an actual 
sound card.
From devnull at spamcop.net  Mon Feb 13 13:54:52 2006
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Mon Feb 13 14:05:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need help with a totally avoidable problem
References: <dsbq8p$mc0$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsdrfs$cis$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<43EA89F0.56F07508@spamcop.net> <dse9h4$nkh$3@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsgg19$71t$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsgqo3$f8f$2@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsj65e$2ic$1@news.spamcop.net> <dsj9p3$4qr$2@news.spamcop.net>
	<dsq45d$p7k$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dsql03$54d$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Joe Gill" <joegill@removethis@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:dsq45d$p7k$1@news.spamcop.net...
|
| "Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote in message
| news:dsj9p3$4qr$2@news.spamcop.net...
| >
| > "Joe Gill" <snip >
| >
| > | > How to do this if the system will not recognize the drive?  I've put
| > this
| > | > drive on another computer running the same OS as a secondary and get
| an
| > | > error message that the drive needs to be formatted.
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > | 1) Did the old system at least 'recoginize' the drive?
| >
| > For a time but I wasted valuable time looking for a virus when I should
| have
| > been working to salvage the data (0ne file actually)
| > |
| > | 2) How big is the drive? It may be a case of the drive not being
| > recognized
| > | correctly by the new system, due to size, and/or BIOS restrictions.
| >
| > Duplicate computer (to the extent possible) with the same make and model
| HDD
| > |
| > | 3) Many of the vendors have software that allow you to
| > | check-out(not-destructively) the drive! Maxtor now supports the
Quantum
| > | line.. Look @ the POWERMAX utility on their site, It runs from a boot
| CD,
| > | and runs with low-level disk commands...
| >
| > Does that distroy the data?  Also I think PowerMax will only work on
| Maxtor
| > drives but I'll give it a try.
| > |
| > | 4) When you attempt to access on the new system, is there any
mechanical
| > | noise from the drive or does it feel like the drive is 'spinning up'?
| >
| > No noise and there is the spin up sound but no access.
| >
| > At this point they are resigned to finger boneing the data into a new
| file.
| > My efforts are basically my attempt to salvage but more for the
experiance
| I
| > might gain.
| >
| >
|
| I am assuming that the BIOS recognized the drive and you went through that
| process...
|
| Since there have been no other updates... I am not sure where you are on
| playing with the drive....
| You may want to try the 'freezer bag' trick, which has helped many users
but
| especially WD drives...
|
| But this goes with the disclaimer that this method, IF it works, will
| usually work 1-2 passes and then you end up with a really dead drive.
|
| ***************************************************
| * This is a method of LAST RESORT                                *
| ***************************************************
|
| 1) Reserve a block a time or map out the time based on the items below.
| 2) Get a good 'zip-loc' type freezer bag.
| 3) Work in a non-humid area.
| 4) Removed drive and place in bag, squeezing out as much air as possible,
| and seal it
| 5) Place is freezer for one hour (Some sites say 30 minutes, some 60, some
4
| hours)
| 6) Remove drive from freezer and bag and place in PC..
| 7) If you can now access it, you must move QUICKLY, you may be able to
| access for a while, and you may not...
| 8) If you cannot access it, try a couple times, over the next half hour,
| power-up / power-down
|
|
| You can look around the web for references/stories about this technique
|
|


From borgholio at storymind.com  Mon Feb 13 15:13:35 2006
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Mon Feb 13 18:15:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Troubleshooting an XP BSOD
In-Reply-To: <Xns9769B585B8604TheShrubIsAnAss@216.154.195.61>
References: <dsiobf$opn$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns9769B585B8604TheShrubIsAnAss@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <dsr3pv$67t$1@news.spamcop.net>

Charles wrote:
> No way it was me! It was Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com>!
> 
> 
>>This one is a bit of a puzzle. 
> 
> 
> Sorry to reply so late, but XP doesn't BS.  You're welcome!

Har dee har har.  I guess it's just my brain that's locking up and crashing 
with an error code.  :-P
From nobody at spamcop.net  Tue Feb 14 10:59:27 2006
From: nobody at spamcop.net (indigo)
Date: Tue Feb 14 11:00:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need a tool for remote monitoring
References: <Xns9769BBABFDE21TheShrubIsAnAss@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <dssuov$hc8$1@news.spamcop.net>



Charles wrote:
> I would like to run one of my applications so that I can also see the
> results on a remote monitor.

Hey, they hired YOU to do this job...if'n one of us gives you an idea that
works how much is in it for us? Kickback city, dude, grease some palms!


From kenbrody at spamcop.net  Tue Feb 14 10:54:04 2006
From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody)
Date: Tue Feb 14 11:10:13 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Troubleshooting an XP BSOD
References: <dsiobf$opn$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns9769B585B8604TheShrubIsAnAss@216.154.195.61>
	<dsr3pv$67t$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns9769BC0E1F5A6TheShrubIsAnAss@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <43F1FD1C.887186FE@spamcop.net>

Charles wrote:
> 
> No way it was me! It was Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com>!
> > Charles wrote:
> >> No way it was me! It was Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com>!
> >>
> >>>This one is a bit of a puzzle.
> >>
> >> Sorry to reply so late, but XP doesn't BS.  You're welcome!
> >
> > Har dee har har.  I guess it's just my brain that's locking up and
> > crashing with an error code.  :-P
> 
> Oh, just saying!  Hey, I went to an XP rollout rally in '01.  They were all
> hyped up about how stable it was and how it didn't crash and bla bla bla.

I believe it was "more stable" and "crashes less often".  Not "stable"
and "doesn't crash".

Yes, my XP systems have only bluescreened several times over a few years,
but they have crashed.  I've also had XP systems bluescreen on bootup.
(And, as I believe I mentioned here, immediately after displaying the
crash message, the screen would clear and it would attempt a reboot,
making it impossible to read the error message.)

> The install, if you recall (otherwise it's in the archives!) went very very
> poorly and fried my partition map.  Ha.  Hate it!  Grr!  Of course, yeah.

Well, I've never actually _installed_ XP anywhere.  If the system didn't
come with XP, I don't install XP.

> Well, it's been mostly stable since then.  At least it isn't like XP - I've
> probably only reinstalled twice in 4 1/2 years instead of once every 6
> months!


-- 
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
| Kenneth J. Brody        | www.hvcomputer.com |                             |
| kenbrody/at\spamcop.net | www.fptech.com     | #include <std_disclaimer.h> |
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
Don't e-mail me at: <mailto:ThisIsASpamTrap@gmail.com>


From kenbrody at spamcop.net  Tue Feb 14 10:58:21 2006
From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody)
Date: Tue Feb 14 11:10:18 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need a tool for remote monitoring
References: <Xns9769BBABFDE21TheShrubIsAnAss@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <43F1FE1D.C32EF586@spamcop.net>

Charles wrote:
> 
> I would like to run one of my applications so that I can also see the
> results on a remote monitor.  Said monitor should be easy to set up and
> able to run in both wired and wireless environments.  I need to be able to
> see, locally, what is happening on the remote monitor so that I can restart
> the program if it crashes but I do not want the remote to simply mirror my
> local screen.  The remote monitor needs to be either rugged or ruggedizable
> to the point where it can take -30 degrees (F or C, it's about the same),
> rain, snow, sun, whatever.
[...]

What about "TightVNC"?  <http://www.tightvnc.com/>

    TightVNC is a free remote control software package derived from the
    popular VNC software. With TightVNC, you can see the desktop of a
    remote machine and control it with your local mouse and keyboard,
    just like you would do it sitting in the front of that computer.
    [...]

-- 
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
| Kenneth J. Brody        | www.hvcomputer.com |                             |
| kenbrody/at\spamcop.net | www.fptech.com     | #include <std_disclaimer.h> |
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
Don't e-mail me at: <mailto:ThisIsASpamTrap@gmail.com>


From nobody at spamcop.net  Thu Feb 16 15:41:23 2006
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Ellen)
Date: Thu Feb 16 15:45:19 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Maint Window 2/16/06
Message-ID: <dt2o2j$fj$1@news.spamcop.net>

Maintenance Window
February 16, 2006
8 PM PST -0800

The will be a maintenance window, starting at 8 PM PST -0800 and lasting
under an hour, to make some infrastructure changes. This will affect the
reporting system only. The email system will continue to operate normally.
After the maintenance completes you may notice some delays in processing as
the system works thru the backlog. Thanks for your patience.




Ellen
SpamCop

f/ups to spamcop

Please propagate to the forums.



From devnull at spamcop.net  Sun Feb 19 12:06:13 2006
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Sun Feb 19 12:10:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Need a source of a good, FREE stuffit/zip it program for a Mac OS
	10.2
Message-ID: <dta8ip$chp$1@news.spamcop.net>

Need a source of a good, FREE stuffit/zip it program for a Mac OS 10.2

TIA

FP


From khhqdty02 at sneakemail.com  Sun Feb 19 23:06:55 2006
From: khhqdty02 at sneakemail.com (Mr K. Mean)
Date: Sun Feb 19 18:10:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
 Re: Need a source of a good, FREE stuffit/zip it program for a Mac
 OS 10.2
In-Reply-To: <ozchzhq02-C8E05E.14374119022006@frylock.local>
References: <dta8ip$chp$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<ozchzhq02-C8E05E.14374119022006@frylock.local>
Message-ID: <dtatmf$p5p$1@news.spamcop.net>

David Dean wrote:
> In article <dta8ip$chp$1@news.spamcop.net>,
>  "Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote:
> 
>> Need a source of a good, FREE stuffit/zip it program for a Mac OS 10.2
> 
>    Isn't it built into the OS? Or was the BOM archive helper added in 
> 10.3? Well, there's also gzip if you don't mind using the terminal.

I don't know what you would use for stuffit, but zip is extremely 
common.  http://www.info-zip.org/ has ported zip and unzip to just about 
every platform there is.
From devnull at spamcop.net  Sun Feb 19 18:20:29 2006
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Sun Feb 19 18:35:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: Need a source of a good, FREE stuffit/zip it program for a Mac
	OS 10.2
References: <dta8ip$chp$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<ozchzhq02-C8E05E.14374119022006@frylock.local>
Message-ID: <dtav2c$q1a$1@news.spamcop.net>


"David Dean" <ozchzhq02@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:ozchzhq02-C8E05E.14374119022006@frylock.local...
| In article <dta8ip$chp$1@news.spamcop.net>,
|  "Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote:
|
| > Need a source of a good, FREE stuffit/zip it program for a Mac OS 10.2
|
|    Isn't it built into the OS? Or was the BOM archive helper added in
| 10.3? Well, there's also gzip if you don't mind using the terminal.

We're using 10.2 and as near as I can figure (I'm not Mac literate and my
wife's Mac wakes up with a message 'does not play well with others -- me
being the 'others') the Stuffit will un zip but not compress files.

What and where is gzip?


From devnull at spamcop.net  Sun Feb 19 18:27:40 2006
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Sun Feb 19 18:35:05 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: Need a source of a good, FREE stuffit/zip it program for a Mac
	OS 10.2
References: <dta8ip$chp$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<ozchzhq02-C8E05E.14374119022006@frylock.local>
	<dtatmf$p5p$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dtav2c$q1a$2@news.spamcop.net>


"Mr K. Mean" <khhqdty02@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:dtatmf$p5p$1@news.spamcop.net...
| David Dean wrote:
| > In article <dta8ip$chp$1@news.spamcop.net>,
| >  "Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote:
| >
| >> Need a source of a good, FREE stuffit/zip it program for a Mac OS 10.2
| >
| >    Isn't it built into the OS? Or was the BOM archive helper added in
| > 10.3? Well, there's also gzip if you don't mind using the terminal.
|
| I don't know what you would use for stuffit, but zip is extremely
| common.  http://www.info-zip.org/ has ported zip and unzip to just about
| every platform there is.

Thanks we'll give this a try.  Not being Mac enabled I'm a bit leery but
what the hey.


From nobody at devnull.spamcop.net  Sun Feb 19 19:19:21 2006
From: nobody at devnull.spamcop.net (WazoO)
Date: Sun Feb 19 20:20:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: Need a source of a good, FREE stuffit/zip it program for a Mac
	OS 10.2
References: <dta8ip$chp$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<ozchzhq02-C8E05E.14374119022006@frylock.local>
	<dtav2c$q1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dtb5ep$v7u$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:dtav2c$q1a$1@news.spamcop.net...
>
> We're using 10.2 and as near as I can figure (I'm not Mac literate and my
> wife's Mac wakes up with a message 'does not play well with others -- me
> being the 'others') the Stuffit will un zip but not compress files.
>
> What and where is gzip?

>From the Finder;
Go | Applications | Utilities | Terminal
type in (without quotes)[
"whereis gzip" .... should return;
/usr/bin/gzip
for help, type in (without quotes)
"man gzip"
return should be a number of screens that
will detail the various options/flags on how
to use the tool

I've got Stuffit Standard 8.0.2 showing under the
Applications screen ... but I also see that Apple is
only listing the current version (10) for OS-X 10.3 at
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/system_disk_utilities/stuffitexpander.html
one spot for download seems to require a bit of info for
getting to the actual download page, but this version is listed
http://www.stuffit.com/cgi-bin/stuffit_loginpage.cgi?standardmac
VersionTracker lists this URL, but also lists;
http://tc.versiontracker.com/product/redir/lid/382268/stuffit_std_802_x_install.dmg
http://tc.versiontracker.com/product/redir/lid/382279/stuffit_std_802_x_install.dmg
didn't chase them down ....


From khhqdty02 at sneakemail.com  Mon Feb 20 12:31:59 2006
From: khhqdty02 at sneakemail.com (Mr K. Mean)
Date: Mon Feb 20 07:35:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
 Re: Need a source of a good, FREE stuffit/zip it program for a Mac
 OS 10.2
In-Reply-To: <dtb5ep$v7u$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <dta8ip$chp$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<ozchzhq02-C8E05E.14374119022006@frylock.local>
	<dtav2c$q1a$1@news.spamcop.net> <dtb5ep$v7u$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <2fpoc3-fn1.ln1@mothlight.dyndns.org>

WazoO wrote:
> "Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> news:dtav2c$q1a$1@news.spamcop.net...
>> We're using 10.2 and as near as I can figure (I'm not Mac literate and my
>> wife's Mac wakes up with a message 'does not play well with others -- me
>> being the 'others') the Stuffit will un zip but not compress files.
>>
>> What and where is gzip?
> 
>>From the Finder;
> Go | Applications | Utilities | Terminal
> type in (without quotes)[
> "whereis gzip" .... should return;
> /usr/bin/gzip
> for help, type in (without quotes)
> "man gzip"
> return should be a number of screens that
> will detail the various options/flags on how
> to use the tool

gzip is one of the older compression tools.  Unlike zip, it cannot 
create archives, only compress individual files.  Generally it is used 
in conjunction with tar which combines multiple files into a single file 
and then you gzip it to compress that file.  It is the unix philosophy 
of creating utilities that only do one thing and combine them with other 
single purposed utilities.

But unzip and zip have been pretty common in most unix based systems for 
quite a while.  You might try the same steps above using "zip" and 
"unzip" instead of "gzip".  On my Linux system, they are in /usr/bin.
From nobody at spamcop.net  Tue Feb 21 16:04:18 2006
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Ellen)
Date: Tue Feb 21 16:15:22 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] System maintenance window, Feb 21, 2006
Message-ID: <dtfvkp$jdi$1@news.spamcop.net>

System Maintenance Window, Tuesday Feb 21, 2006, 5PM PST -0800

There will be a maintenance window today, Feb 21 starting at 5PM PST. It
should last for approximately an hour. This affects the reporting system
only. The email system will continue to operate as usual. After the
completetion of the maintenance you may notice some delays as the system
works through the backlog. Thank you for your patience.

-- 

Ellen
SpamCop

Pls propagate to the forums.


From jeffg at spamcop.net  Tue Feb 21 19:01:22 2006
From: jeffg at spamcop.net (Jeff G.)
Date: Tue Feb 21 19:15:19 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: System maintenance window, Feb 21, 2006
References: <dtfvkp$jdi$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dtga7a$s8s$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Ellen" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:dtfvkp$jdi$1@news.spamcop.net...
> System Maintenance Window, Tuesday Feb 21, 2006, 5PM PST -0800

In other terms, that's Tuesday Feb 21, 2006, 17:00 PST -0800 or Tuesday
Feb 21, 2006, 20:00 EST -0500 or Wednesday Feb 22, 2006, 01:00
UTC -0000.

> Pls propagate to the forums.

Done.

From bwhite at deja.com  Wed Feb 22 10:07:01 2006
From: bwhite at deja.com (Brad White)
Date: Wed Feb 22 11:10:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] SMTP server vs open relay
Message-ID: <dti275$pvf$2@news.spamcop.net>

I sometimes use an external e-mail account besides my company account
to help keep mail sorted.

Our local SMTP server locked up and had to be rebooted.
As a result (don't ask, long confusing story) my IT admin had
me install IIS and setup a local SMTP server on my local machine.

To get it to work, I had to turn on relaying.  Now I can send and
receive e-mail and everything seems to be working fine.

Now I'm being accused of being a problem because I have relaying
turned on.  I have it set to only allow mail from my IP, so I think
that I'm safe.  Now I just need to prove it.
A tech from my e-mail provider tried to relay something through
my SMTP server and couldn't even see it, so he thinks I'm safe,
but I'd like something more athoritative that I could show the admin
to calm him down.

How do I prove that this SMTP server can't be used as an open relay?

-- 
Thanks,
Brad.



From MikeE at ster.invalid  Wed Feb 22 10:25:38 2006
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Wed Feb 22 13:30:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: SMTP server vs open relay
References: <dti275$pvf$2@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dtiab0$uqg$1@news.spamcop.net>

Brad White wrote:
> I sometimes use an external e-mail account besides my company account
> to help keep mail sorted.
>
> Our local SMTP server locked up and had to be rebooted.
> As a result (don't ask, long confusing story) my IT admin had
> me install IIS and setup a local SMTP server on my local machine.

There are some implications in the network topology 'non-description'
there that need to be clarified.

Does that mean that you are on a company network, and that company
network is behind a genuine industrial strength firewall and is
otherwise secured from the WAN internet at large?

Does that also mean that your *own* network or machine are/is behind its
*own* NAT device or other hardware firewall?  I aks that because of a
later statement you made about seeing your server.

> To get it to work, I had to turn on relaying.  Now I can send and
> receive e-mail and everything seems to be working fine.

Now you can send and receive email from whom or what?  You can receive
email from dynamic IPs direct to mx?  You have your own MX inside of the
company's network?  Your mail is routed into the company's network past
the firewall?  None of the above?

> Now I'm being accused of being a problem because I have relaying
> turned on.

No doubt that the IIS can be insecure.

> I have it set to only allow mail from my IP, so I think
> that I'm safe.

That sounds good, except that we/I don't know/ can't tell/ what is set
where behind what.

> Now I just need to prove it.
> A tech from my e-mail provider tried to relay something through
> my SMTP server and couldn't even see it, so he thinks I'm safe,
> but I'd like something more athoritative that I could show the admin
> to calm him down.

Now you can see why describing the network topology of your company and
your IIS server as above is so important.  I can't even tell where the
email provider is compared to anything else.

> How do I prove that this SMTP server can't be used as an open relay?

Start by describing for sake of discussion where everything is,
network-wise, and what kinds of firewalls or NAT devices are where.

There's a IIS discussion here
http://www.iis-resources.com/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=5  how to
set the SMTP Server security options.

-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From bwhite at deja.com  Wed Feb 22 14:46:14 2006
From: bwhite at deja.com (Brad White)
Date: Wed Feb 22 15:50:12 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: SMTP server vs open relay
References: <dti275$pvf$2@news.spamcop.net> <dtiab0$uqg$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dtiiim$4fe$1@news.spamcop.net>

Mike asked some very good questions, most of which I don't
know the answer to.  My few comments are inline.

"Mike Easter" <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote in message 
news:dtiab0$uqg$1@news.spamcop.net...
> Brad White wrote:
>> I sometimes use an external e-mail account besides my company account
>> to help keep mail sorted.
>>
>> Our local SMTP server locked up and had to be rebooted.
>> As a result (don't ask, long confusing story) my IT admin had
>> me install IIS and setup a local SMTP server on my local machine.
>
> There are some implications in the network topology 'non-description'
> there that need to be clarified.
>
> Does that mean that you are on a company network,
Yes.

> and that company
> network is behind a genuine industrial strength firewall and is
> otherwise secured from the WAN internet at large?
>
That is my understanding, but I have no knowledge or proof of
how it is actually set up.  I know that if we get a lot of ping traffic
from a particular domain, the admin will block the entire domain.

I know that ShieldsUp from GRC says that I'm invisible, but
I'm pretty sure that doens't account for open relays and SMTP servers.

> Does that also mean that your *own* network or machine are/is behind its
> *own* NAT device or other hardware firewall?  I aks that because of a
> later statement you made about seeing your server.

Um, not sure.  The only evidence I have that might apply here is from
when I sent a test e-mail to another IP.  He said that it appeared to
come from a RoadRunner business class IP address.
My SMTP server is set up with a 10.2 address.

>
>> To get it to work, I had to turn on relaying.  Now I can send and
>> receive e-mail and everything seems to be working fine.
>
I've been able to receive e-mail to this account all along.  It is
only sending that has been a problem.  I *believe* that I'm only using
the SMTP server for sending e-mail.  I don't believe that it is involved
in the receiving end of things.
Sorry for the confusion.

> Now you can send and receive email from whom or what?
Good question.
I've been able to set the outgoing SMTP server to my local
10.2 address, and the mail goes out.  I'm assuming that the
SMTP server that I set up is handling the outgoing mail.
This is confirmed by the log files.  I can see the messages from
interacting with the remote mail servers for messages I sent.

> You can receive email from dynamic IPs direct to mx?
How would I know?

> You have your own MX inside of the company's network?
I don't think I set one up, but I assume, based on no evidence, that we have 
one.
How would I know?

> Your mail is routed into the company's network past
> the firewall?  None of the above?
Um, my vague understanding is that the SMTP server doesn't *actually*
send anything.  It appears to notify the receiver at the destination which
then requests the message from the SMTP server.  For that to be true,
the POP machine would have to be able to communicate with my machine.
How any of that navigates the firewall, I don't know.

Just noticed that IIS is listed as an exception for my local XP firewall.

I have no access or logon priveleges to the machines that handle that 
aspect.

I am running Windows XP, sp2.  The firewall is turned on.  No access to
SMTP is allowed (according to the settings) from the internet.
I do *not* have access to "local security policy" on my machine, so
I can't tell you the settings there.

>
>> Now I'm being accused of being a problem because I have relaying
>> turned on.
>
> No doubt that the IIS can be insecure.
Undoubtably.
What I'm trying to avoid is getting us listed on an RBL.  Then
I'd really be in trouble.     8:-)

>
>> I have it set to only allow mail from my IP, so I think
>> that I'm safe.
>
> That sounds good, except that we/I don't know/ can't tell/ what is set
> where behind what.
>
>> Now I just need to prove it.
>> A tech from my e-mail provider tried to relay something through
>> my SMTP server and couldn't even see it, so he thinks I'm safe,
>> but I'd like something more athoritative that I could show the admin
>> to calm him down.
>
> Now you can see why describing the network topology of your company and
> your IIS server as above is so important.  I can't even tell where the
> email provider is compared to anything else.
>
>> How do I prove that this SMTP server can't be used as an open relay?
>
> Start by describing for sake of discussion where everything is,
> network-wise, and what kinds of firewalls or NAT devices are where.
>
Hmm.  I was hoping there was some more definite way to test for
an open relay than trusting to my knowlege of the network setup.

> There's a IIS discussion here
> http://www.iis-resources.com/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=5  how to
> set the SMTP Server security options.
>
That looked promising, but at the key points all it says is "depending on 
your setup."
No discussion about the effects of the various settings.

I'll post again with my settings as they relate to this web page.

Thanks,
Brad. 


From MikeE at ster.invalid  Wed Feb 22 15:48:06 2006
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Wed Feb 22 18:50:02 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: SMTP server vs open relay
References: <dti275$pvf$2@news.spamcop.net> <dtiab0$uqg$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<dtiiim$4fe$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dtit7j$ai1$1@news.spamcop.net>

Brad White wrote:
> "Mike Easter"
>> Brad White wrote:
>>> I sometimes use an external e-mail account besides my company
>>> account to help keep mail sorted.
>>>
>>> Our local SMTP server locked up and had to be rebooted.
>>> As a result (don't ask, long confusing story) my IT admin had
>>> me install IIS and setup a local SMTP server on my local machine.

>> Does that mean that you are on a company network,
                           <notice I put an empty line in there for you>
> Yes.

> I know that ShieldsUp from GRC says that I'm invisible, but
> I'm pretty sure that doens't account for open relays and SMTP servers.

If you are invisible to shieldsup, you are pretty invisible.

> Um, not sure.  The only evidence I have that might apply here is from
> when I sent a test e-mail to another IP.  He said that it appeared to
> come from a RoadRunner business class IP address.
> My SMTP server is set up with a 10.2 address.

Yes I understand that.  I can see your posting IP is a west.biz.rr.com
IP.  With residential rr/s one can tell the geography a lot better.
With biz, it is harder.  I can see a tracert going thru' KC [Kansas
City] and NE [Nebraska] rr/s.  That doesn't have anything to do with
this thread, just an observation.  The 10.2 IP is just your internal
non-routing one.

>> To get it to work, I had to turn on relaying.  Now I can send and
>>> receive e-mail and everything seems to be working fine.

Hopefully someone familiar with IIS will jump in here and comment on
that.  I'm not sure I understand what 'relaying' is going on in this
context.  You are sending a mail to your IIS server which is relaying it
to wherever it is going, presumably.

> I've been able to receive e-mail to this account all along.  It is
> only sending that has been a problem.  I *believe* that I'm only using
> the SMTP server for sending e-mail.  I don't believe that it is
> involved in the receiving end of things.

I hear what you are saying and I'm not hearing something there that is
worrisome to me about someone outside accessing your server.  However, I
can imagine some scenarios by which you could propagate viruses if you
were infected.  I don't think I can imagine a scenario by which you
become trojanized and become a proxy for someone accessing your IP and
using it to inject smtp.

>> Now you can send and receive email from whom or what?

> Good question.

> I've been able to set the outgoing SMTP server to my local
> 10.2 address, and the mail goes out.  I'm assuming that the
> SMTP server that I set up is handling the outgoing mail.
> This is confirmed by the log files.  I can see the messages from
> interacting with the remote mail servers for messages I sent.
>
>> You can receive email from dynamic IPs direct to mx?

> How would I know?

Well, one way would be to look at your spam's headers.  Very frequently
there would be a spamsource sending directly to some MX which put the
item into your mailbox.  But maybe that's not important for this
discussion.

>> You have your own MX inside of the company's network?

> I don't think I set one up, but I assume, based on no evidence, that
> we have one.
> How would I know?

I guess one question would be how do you get your mail.  Not the
username, but how is mail addressed to 'you' -- where only the username
half is munged.  Knowing the domainname you receive mail might help
complete some missing parts of this discussion.

>> Your mail is routed into the company's network past
>> the firewall?  None of the above?

> Um, my vague understanding is that the SMTP server doesn't *actually*
> send anything.  It appears to notify the receiver at the destination
> which then requests the message from the SMTP server.

I don't think so, Tim [Al Borland - Tool Time - TV show]

>>> Now I'm being accused of being a problem because I have relaying
>>> turned on.

Could you elaborate more on how you came about to be accused of being a
problem?

>>> A tech from my e-mail provider tried to relay something through
>>> my SMTP server and couldn't even see it, so he thinks I'm safe,

Yes, that's my thinking so far.

>>> but I'd like something more athoritative that I could show the admin
>>> to calm him down.

The admin is edgy?  Could you explain that [why] a little better?

>>> How do I prove that this SMTP server can't be used as an open relay?

> Hmm.  I was hoping there was some more definite way to test for
> an open relay than trusting to my knowlege of the network setup.

If I want to 'mess around' with a server, I first try to hook up with it
by its name, alternatively by its IP.  So, I would engage it over its
port 25 and then see if I can fool it into relaying some for me.  If I
can't connect with it, I'm going to have a problem messing with it.

> I'll post again with my settings as they relate to this web page.


-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Thu Feb 23 13:42:57 2006
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Thu Feb 23 07:45:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: SMTP server vs open relay
References: <dti275$pvf$2@news.spamcop.net> <dtiab0$uqg$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<dtiiim$4fe$1@news.spamcop.net> <dtit7j$ai1$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <slrndvrbeh.6f5.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:48:06 -0800, Mike Easter coughed into 
spamcop.geeks and left this in <dtit7j$ai1$1@news.spamcop.net>:

> Hopefully someone familiar with IIS will jump in here and comment on
> that.  I'm not sure I understand what 'relaying' is going on in this
> context.

Especially as IIS is (a backdoor that doubles as) an HTTP server, not a 
mail server...

-- 
Steve

guru, n:
        A computer owner who can read the manual.
From bwhite at deja.com  Thu Feb 23 20:00:57 2006
From: bwhite at deja.com (Brad White)
Date: Thu Feb 23 21:05:03 2006
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: SMTP server vs open relay
References: <dti275$pvf$2@news.spamcop.net> <dtiab0$uqg$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<dtiiim$4fe$1@news.spamcop.net> <dtit7j$ai1$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dtlpcq$tf7$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Mike Easter" <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote in message 
news:dtit7j$ai1$1@news.spamcop.net...
> Brad White wrote:
>> "Mike Easter"
>>> Brad White wrote:
>>>> I sometimes use an external e-mail account besides my company
>>>> account to help keep mail sorted.

>> I know that ShieldsUp from GRC says that I'm invisible, but
>> I'm pretty sure that doens't account for open relays and SMTP servers.
>
> If you are invisible to shieldsup, you are pretty invisible.

OK.

>> Um, not sure.  The only evidence I have that might apply here is from
>> when I sent a test e-mail to another IP.  He said that it appeared to
>> come from a RoadRunner business class IP address.
>> My SMTP server is set up with a 10.2 address.
>
> Yes I understand that.  I can see your posting IP is a west.biz.rr.com
> IP.  With residential rr/s one can tell the geography a lot better.
> With biz, it is harder.  I can see a tracert going thru' KC [Kansas
> City] and NE [Nebraska] rr/s.  That doesn't have anything to do with
> this thread, just an observation.  The 10.2 IP is just your internal
> non-routing one.

Yes.
>
>>> To get it to work, I had to turn on relaying.  Now I can send and
>>>> receive e-mail and everything seems to be working fine.
>
> Hopefully someone familiar with IIS will jump in here and comment on
> that.  I'm not sure I understand what 'relaying' is going on in this
> context.

I'm surprised that I need to turn relaying on.  This seems to me to be
the least relaying situation possible.  If I need relaying on for this,
it is hard to imagine a situation that woudl not need it.

> You are sending a mail to your IIS server which is relaying it
> to wherever it is going, presumably.

Presumably.

>> I've been able to receive e-mail to this account all along.  It is
>> only sending that has been a problem.  I *believe* that I'm only using
>> the SMTP server for sending e-mail.  I don't believe that it is
>> involved in the receiving end of things.
>
> I hear what you are saying and I'm not hearing something there that is
> worrisome to me about someone outside accessing your server.  However, I
> can imagine some scenarios by which you could propagate viruses if you
> were infected.

Certainly.

> I don't think I can imagine a scenario by which you
> become trojanized and become a proxy for someone accessing your IP and
> using it to inject smtp.
>
Well, that's encouraging.

>>> You can receive email from dynamic IPs direct to mx?
>> How would I know?
> Well, one way would be to look at your spam's headers.  Very frequently
> there would be a spamsource sending directly to some MX which put the
> item into your mailbox.  But maybe that's not important for this
> discussion.
>

Spam coming to me for this account comes through my external ISP.
No internal mail servers show up in the Spamcop trace.

>>> Your mail is routed into the company's network past
>>> the firewall?  None of the above?
>
>> Um, my vague understanding is that the SMTP server doesn't *actually*
>> send anything.  It appears to notify the receiver at the destination
>> which then requests the message from the SMTP server.
>
> I don't think so, Tim [Al Borland - Tool Time - TV show]
>
>>>> Now I'm being accused of being a problem because I have relaying
>>>> turned on.
>
> Could you elaborate more on how you came about to be accused of being a
> problem?
>
Well, I'm not competely sure about that.  I had an existing e-mail account
through a local ISP.  After starting here, the ISP allowed me to keep the
account, but using the work ISP, for $29 a year.  At work they grudgingly
allowed me to access my external e-mail provider in addition to my work
e-mail.  I'm the only one, so I'm odd man out, so to speak.

I also have to be on a special list at the ISP, because they normally don't
allow mail that appears to be from their network, but really isn't, to go
to accounts on their network.  I'm an exception and have to be in an 
exception
list or go to the spam bucket.

A month ago, I realized that my outgoing e-mails were not actually going
out.  No errors, but no one was responding and I got a few reports that they
hadn't received my replies.
At first I assumed that it was a problem at my e-mail provider.  But they
couldn't find anything on that end.
I checked with my admin here, and *all* e-mail going through that server
had stopped.  Something was locked up.
Couldn't delete the emails in the outgoing que, since something still had
ahold of them.  We'll never know what.
We rebooted the server, and now everything is fine.

Not much e-mail actually goes through that SMTP server since everyone here
uses Outlook which goes through an Exchange server.

I can use that SMTP server IP as my OE outgoing SMTP server, and it works.
But, probably since I noticed and asked about it, I got blamed for locking 
it
up and blocking all the other e-mails from going out.  For all I know,
it could have been one of my e-mails that did it.  They were they same
simple text e-mails I've been sending hte same way for the last two years.

Enough of that.

>>>> A tech from my e-mail provider tried to relay something through
>>>> my SMTP server and couldn't even see it, so he thinks I'm safe,
>
> Yes, that's my thinking so far.
>
>>>> but I'd like something more athoritative that I could show the admin
>>>> to calm him down.
>
> The admin is edgy?  Could you explain that [why] a little better?

I think it's in his nature, probably aggravated by his experience, that
anything that can be exploited will be.  And that no one else knows
anything about security.  Which in my case would be close to the truth.
I know about application security, but not network security.  I depend
on the techs for that.

>
>>>> How do I prove that this SMTP server can't be used as an open relay?
>
>> Hmm.  I was hoping there was some more definite way to test for
>> an open relay than trusting to my knowlege of the network setup.
>
> If I want to 'mess around' with a server, I first try to hook up with it
> by its name, alternatively by its IP.  So, I would engage it over its
> port 25 and then see if I can fool it into relaying some for me.  If I
> can't connect with it, I'm going to have a problem messing with it.
>
So, if you wanted to use it as an open relay, you would have to
be able to see it from the net, and ShieldsUp says I'm invisible?
It definitely tried port 25.

-- 
Thanks,
Brad White