From MikeE at ster.invalid  Sat Jan  1 10:41:36 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Sat Jan  1 13:45:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Remote admin
Message-ID: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net>

I have a couple of friends for/with whom my life would be a lot simpler
if I were doing a little remote admin for, rather than the tedium of
listening to a description over the 'phone or email and having to send
instructions and screenshots and such.

What I'm thinking about doing is using VNC as a server on the friends'
machines and the VNC client/viewer on my end.  We are all on cable
modems and I'm on a LAN behind my switch router.  The other two are
straightup to the modem.  There's good documentation and a lot of other
good features to the VNC besides free.

Since there's really no security for the RFB remote frame buffer
communication in 'straight' VNC and I'll be going across the 'net, I'm
figgering that the Kaboodle gizmo on each end is the way to straighten
that out.  I suppose some heavy duty encryption gurus might find
kaboodle lightweight, but this isn't nuclear energy secrets we're
dealing with here.

Those friends are susceptible to ad/spy/mal/ware, and the limit of their
skills seems to be running AdAware and an AV agent.  I need to be able
to take a little looksee from time to time with some more ware, and
then, if they actually need hands on, they'll have to get Geek Patrol in
one place and the other one has already had some help from a local
outfit called Circuit Board.

http://www.realvnc.com/what.html
http://www.kaboodle.org/index.html

-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From joegill at removethis  Sat Jan  1 14:08:19 2005
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Sat Jan  1 14:10:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr6sf2$f13$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Mike Easter" <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote in message
news:cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net...
> I have a couple of friends for/with whom my life would be a lot simpler
> if I were doing a little remote admin for, rather than the tedium of
<SNIP>

I know some people are anti-MS when it come to tools, but if all of you are
XP have you look at the built-in tools?
   - Remote Desktop (Also works on NT, 2000)
   - Remote Assistance (Both must be XP)



From joegill at removethis  Sat Jan  1 14:11:14 2005
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Sat Jan  1 14:15:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr6sf2$f13$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr6skh$f9a$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Joe Gill" <joegill@removethis@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:cr6sf2$f13$1@news.spamcop.net...
>
> "Mike Easter" <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote in message
> news:cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net...
> > I have a couple of friends for/with whom my life would be a lot simpler
> > if I were doing a little remote admin for, rather than the tedium of
> <SNIP>
>
> I know some people are anti-MS when it come to tools, but if all of you
are
> XP have you look at the built-in tools?
>    - Remote Desktop (Also works on NT, 2000)
>    - Remote Assistance (Both must be XP)
>
>
>

Also you can put "NetMeeting 3.0" and use the "Remote Desktop" feature to
callout to the desktop. I believe there is support for SSL private
certificates.


From MikeE at ster.invalid  Sat Jan  1 11:12:54 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Sat Jan  1 14:15:07 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr6sf2$f13$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr6slp$fa9$1@news.spamcop.net>

Joe Gill wrote:
> "Mike Easter"
>> I have a couple of friends for/with whom my life would be a lot
>> simpler if I were doing a little remote admin for, rather than the
>> tedium of <SNIP> 
> 
> I know some people are anti-MS when it come to tools, but if all of
> you are XP have you look at the built-in tools?
>    - Remote Desktop (Also works on NT, 2000)
>    - Remote Assistance (Both must be XP)

One needing help is XP, the other is W98, as am I 98se.  

-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin
From MikeE at ster.invalid  Sat Jan  1 11:17:34 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Sat Jan  1 14:20:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr6s0n$elm$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr6sug$fgj$1@news.spamcop.net>

Mr K. Mean wrote:
> I would suggest something like VNC through a SSH tunnel, but it seems
> like you are going Windows to Windows, right?  Maybe there is a way
> you can run a SSH server on the host machine though, so that this
> would apply: http://www.uk.research.att.com/archive/vnc/sshvnc.html

There are also some ssh docs and help in the vnc faqomatic
http://faq.gotomyvnc.com/fom-serve/cache/5.html  VNC FAQ-o-Matic :
SSH and Other Step-by-Step How-To's --

That faq also has some other instructions and 'comparisons':

FAQ's, Answers, and How-To's in this category:
Using SSH or OpenSSH
Using PuTTY's SSH on Windows
Using Zebedee
Using Stunnel
Using Kaboodle <snippage below>

> But if you can run a SSH server, the whole tunneling concept is pretty
> cool and you can run a wide variety of protocols though that in
> addition to VNC.


Using Kaboodle
Kaboodle is arguably the easiest VNC-securifier because it
automatically wraps your VNC connections into a secure tunnel
without asking you for any IP addresses or TCP port details.

With Kaboodle, you can also connect two LANs together, and
then connect to *all* of the VNC Servers on the far side,
using the one connection. In this sense, it's sort of a "VNC
Proxy".


-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From TJLWBECGSGWU at spammotel.com  Sat Jan  1 19:32:18 2005
From: TJLWBECGSGWU at spammotel.com (Mathew Hendry)
Date: Sat Jan  1 14:35:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr6sf2$f13$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr6slp$fa9$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <optdt01m6ackhlarbvic72b92prvv4aksl@4ax.com>

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 11:12:54 -0800, "Mike Easter" <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote:

>Joe Gill wrote:
>
>> "Mike Easter"
>>> I have a couple of friends for/with whom my life would be a lot
>>> simpler if I were doing a little remote admin for, rather than the
>>> tedium of <SNIP> 
>> 
>> I know some people are anti-MS when it come to tools, but if all of
>> you are XP have you look at the built-in tools?
>>    - Remote Desktop (Also works on NT, 2000)
>>    - Remote Assistance (Both must be XP)
>
>One needing help is XP, the other is W98, as am I 98se.  

Remote Desktop *serving* is also only supported in XP Pro, not XP Home,
though the client will work on pretty much any version of Windows. I'd use
Remote Desktop aka Terminal Services where possible, because it's a lot more
efficient and responsive than VNC. VNC is somewhat painful even on a LAN. :|

As an alternative for the encryption, you might look at the openssl-based
stunnel. Been around a while and very stable. IIRC Remote Desktop encrypts
traffic itself using RC4.

-- Mat.

From MikeE at ster.invalid  Sat Jan  1 12:06:56 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Sat Jan  1 15:10:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr6s0n$elm$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr6sug$fgj$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr6v00$h2n$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr6vr3$hh5$1@news.spamcop.net>

Mr K. Mean wrote:
> Oh ok, that sounds interesting.  I hadn't heard of it before.  I might
> have to try it out.  I always connect remotely to my Linux machine
> through SSH and from Windows, it is pretty easy to set up a tunnel
> using the ssh.com client.  I'm used to doing that, they you just
> connect through SSH and then point whatever you want to
> localhost:new_port and it is all pretty transparent from there.  It
> works so I haven't bothered looking for anything else.

One of the nice things about vnc and kaboodle is that they both enable
mixing or interacting the win and linux boxen.  I'm pretty sure I'll
never be 'graduating' to XP, so my routes for 'updating' my old W98se OS
are all currently looking linux.  I wouldn't mind also having a Win2K if
it came along with some box I acquired or if I could find a dynamite
deal for purchasing, but I need to be able to migrate my OSes around
with different hardware and I'm not interested in having to get MS's
permission and license and approval for all of that with XP.

-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From wb8tyw at qsl.network  Sat Jan  1 21:42:52 2005
From: wb8tyw at qsl.network (John E. Malmberg)
Date: Sat Jan  1 21:45:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
In-Reply-To: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr7n3d$uf3$1@news.spamcop.net>

Mike Easter wrote:
> 
> What I'm thinking about doing is using VNC as a server on the friends'
> machines and the VNC client/viewer on my end.  We are all on cable
> modems and I'm on a LAN behind my switch router.  The other two are
> straightup to the modem.  There's good documentation and a lot of other
> good features to the VNC besides free.

Check the TOS for their cable modems.  Many residential broadband ISP's 
specifically prohibit all servers.

-John
wb8tyw@qsl.network
Personal Opinion Only
From MikeE at ster.invalid  Sat Jan  1 19:16:50 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Sat Jan  1 22:20:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr7n3d$uf3$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr7p12$vpo$1@news.spamcop.net>

John E. Malmberg wrote:
> Check the TOS for their cable modems.  Many residential broadband
> ISP's specifically prohibit all servers.

Well, there's serving and there's serving -- and there are clients and
there are clients.  It wouldn't seem to me that this is a real 'serving'
serving issue.

For example, when I was RR, the RR TOS prohibited serving, eg mail
serving, but the chief tech admin who participated in the RR help groups
sed that lightweight mail serving that didn't generate traffic and was
secure was 'ignored'.

However, the same techadmin was totally against filesharing P2P serving,
because it created significant traffic -- saying nothing of the
copyright issues.  So, his attitude was that if people were going to be
doing p2p filesharing they couldn't be 'sharing' ie serving, they could
only be filehogs and turn off the shares.

This vnc activity would be extremely limited.  Every once in a while we
would hook up and I would drive their box around looking at their screen
and inputting mouse and keyboard activity and maybe print a little
HiJackThis log and then shut back down.


But, you make a point which shouldn't be ignored -- that one should be
aware of, take into account.  That position of RR was a long time ago
and far far away. That particular geographic RR was actually a better
netizen in those days;  that same admin took care of security business
very well in our geographic area.  Now there's no RR security *and* no
serving.  Pretty crazy;  all upside down.

-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From user at domain.invalid  Sat Jan  1 21:35:37 2005
From: user at domain.invalid (User)
Date: Sat Jan  1 22:35:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
In-Reply-To: <cr7n3d$uf3$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr7n3d$uf3$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr7q0b$h8$1@news.spamcop.net>

On 01.01.2005 20:42, John E. Malmberg wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> Mike Easter wrote:
>> 
>> What I'm thinking about doing is using VNC as a server on the friends'
>> machines and the VNC client/viewer on my end.  We are all on cable
>> modems and I'm on a LAN behind my switch router.  The other two are
>> straightup to the modem.  There's good documentation and a lot of other
>> good features to the VNC besides free.
> 
> Check the TOS for their cable modems.  Many residential broadband ISP's 
> specifically prohibit all servers.
> 
> -John
> wb8tyw@qsl.network
> Personal Opinion Only

I've been running VNC for a very long time over the COX HSI Network
without a problem. VNC is not a daemon such as Apache for instance. VNC,
in essence, is like running PCAnywhere.

73 from "5" land !! ;-)
From wb8tyw at qsl.network  Sun Jan  2 00:16:58 2005
From: wb8tyw at qsl.network (John E. Malmberg)
Date: Sun Jan  2 00:20:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
In-Reply-To: <cr7p12$vpo$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr7n3d$uf3$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr7p12$vpo$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr804a$5j2$1@news.spamcop.net>

Mike Easter wrote:
> John E. Malmberg wrote:
> 
>>Check the TOS for their cable modems.  Many residential broadband
>>ISP's specifically prohibit all servers.
>  
> But, you make a point which shouldn't be ignored -- that one should be
> aware of, take into account.  That position of RR was a long time ago
> and far far away. That particular geographic RR was actually a better
> netizen in those days;  that same admin took care of security business
> very well in our geographic area.  Now there's no RR security *and* no
> serving.  Pretty crazy;  all upside down.

A security person that used to post from an rr.com address is now 
posting from an Adelphia.com address.

One sigificant side effect was getting some DNSbls implenemented on the 
incoming mail servers, and this has significanly cut down on the spam 
that was coming in.  Before that time, there up to 45 spams per day that 
made it through their commericial content filter.

The policy of Adelphia appears to be, is that if they find server port 
active on a client machine, the user will get disconnected, and will 
have to pay a signup fee to get reconnected.

Also where I am, they are the only broadband supplier available.

-John
wb8tyw@qsl.network
Personal Opinion Only

From me at privacy.net  Sun Jan  2 00:38:00 2005
From: me at privacy.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Sun Jan  2 01:05:09 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr7n3d$uf3$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr7q0b$h8$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr82r7$7g2$1@news.spamcop.net>


"User" <user@domain.invalid> wrote in message
news:cr7q0b$h8$1@news.spamcop.net...
| On 01.01.2005 20:42, John E. Malmberg wrote:
|
|  --- Original Message ---
|
| > Mike Easter wrote:
| >>
| >> What I'm thinking about doing is using VNC as a server on the friends'
| >> machines and the VNC client/viewer on my end.  We are all on cable
| >> modems and I'm on a LAN behind my switch router.  The other two are
| >> straightup to the modem.  There's good documentation and a lot of other
| >> good features to the VNC besides free.
| >
| > Check the TOS for their cable modems.  Many residential broadband ISP's
| > specifically prohibit all servers.
| >
| > -John
| > wb8tyw@qsl.network
| > Personal Opinion Only
|
| I've been running VNC for a very long time over the COX HSI Network
| without a problem. VNC is not a daemon such as Apache for instance. VNC,
| in essence, is like running PCAnywhere.

Charter (in NC at least) will sell service based on the availability of VNC
for business users.  I've not checked into what they have to say about home
users but I would not expect much complaint if the process is for support
especially if it's 'client' support.


From user at domain.invalid  Sun Jan  2 09:24:01 2005
From: user at domain.invalid (User)
Date: Sun Jan  2 10:25:07 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
In-Reply-To: <cr82r7$7g2$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr7n3d$uf3$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr7q0b$h8$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr82r7$7g2$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr93gg$qtn$1@news.spamcop.net>

On 01.01.2005 23:38, Frog Prince wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> "User" <user@domain.invalid> wrote in message
> news:cr7q0b$h8$1@news.spamcop.net...
> | On 01.01.2005 20:42, John E. Malmberg wrote:
> |
> |  --- Original Message ---
> |
> | > Mike Easter wrote:
> | >>
> | >> What I'm thinking about doing is using VNC as a server on the friends'
> | >> machines and the VNC client/viewer on my end.  We are all on cable
> | >> modems and I'm on a LAN behind my switch router.  The other two are
> | >> straightup to the modem.  There's good documentation and a lot of other
> | >> good features to the VNC besides free.
> | >
> | > Check the TOS for their cable modems.  Many residential broadband ISP's
> | > specifically prohibit all servers.
> | >
> | > -John
> | > wb8tyw@qsl.network
> | > Personal Opinion Only
> |
> | I've been running VNC for a very long time over the COX HSI Network
> | without a problem. VNC is not a daemon such as Apache for instance. VNC,
> | in essence, is like running PCAnywhere.
> 
> Charter (in NC at least) will sell service based on the availability of VNC
> for business users.  I've not checked into what they have to say about home
> users but I would not expect much complaint if the process is for support
> especially if it's 'client' support.
> 
> 

It would seem to me to be advantageous to end the discussion(s) by
simply inquiring of Adelphia, RR, etc. what their policy is regarding
VNC, PCanywhere, etc. and related apps. I mean after all, you're not
broadcasting a connection to the planet like you do from a web server,
etc. I've been using VNC since it's beginning with COX Cable-Modem
access and have literally made 100's of connections without incident.

But don't ask Cox Support as they don't know their collective butts from
a hole in the ground, the very WORST support team imagineable.
From nobody at devnull.spamcop.net  Sun Jan  2 10:58:57 2005
From: nobody at devnull.spamcop.net (Steve Gilder)
Date: Sun Jan  2 11:00:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr95o3$sc6$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Mike Easter" <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote in message 
news:cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net...
[snip]
>
> Those friends are susceptible to ad/spy/mal/ware, and the limit of their
> skills seems to be running AdAware and an AV agent.  I need to be able
> to take a little looksee from time to time with some more ware, and
> then, if they actually need hands on, they'll have to get Geek Patrol in
> one place and the other one has already had some help from a local
> outfit called Circuit Board.
>
> http://www.realvnc.com/what.html
> http://www.kaboodle.org/index.html
>
> -- 
> Mike Easter
> kibitzer, not SC admin
>
Mike,

I've been using MS Remote Desktop for remote support (XP Pro/98se to Win2K) 
for as long as I've known about it. It works well.

There is a version of Remote Desktop that you can get from MS Downloads for 
98se (FREE!) but I don't know if it will function as a *server*.

I have also experimented with NetMeeting - Remote Desktop from/to XP Pro & 
Home, Win2k, WinNT and 98se and I can tell you it also works. It requires 
the remote (your customer) to allow the client (you) to get in and poke 
around.

Best thing about these - they're free.

Steve


From MikeE at ster.invalid  Sun Jan  2 08:14:25 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Sun Jan  2 11:15:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr95o3$sc6$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr96j0$svg$1@news.spamcop.net>

Steve Gilder wrote:
> I've been using MS Remote Desktop for remote support (XP Pro/98se to
> Win2K) for as long as I've known about it. It works well.
>
> There is a version of Remote Desktop that you can get from MS
> Downloads for 98se (FREE!) but I don't know if it will function as a
> *server*.

Remote Desktop needs to have the host/server [the one being remotely
admin/d] be XP Pro.  The client admin/er can go all the way back to W9x.
In this case, one host is XP Home, and the other is 98.


-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From joegill at removethis  Sun Jan  2 15:48:06 2005
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Sun Jan  2 15:50:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr95o3$sc6$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr96j0$svg$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr9mm2$6jl$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Mike Easter" <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote in message
news:cr96j0$svg$1@news.spamcop.net...
> Steve Gilder wrote:
> > I've been using MS Remote Desktop for remote support (XP Pro/98se to
> > Win2K) for as long as I've known about it. It works well.
> >
> > There is a version of Remote Desktop that you can get from MS
> > Downloads for 98se (FREE!) but I don't know if it will function as a
> > *server*.
>
> Remote Desktop needs to have the host/server [the one being remotely
> admin/d] be XP Pro.  The client admin/er can go all the way back to W9x.
> In this case, one host is XP Home, and the other is 98.
>
>
But NetMeeting's Component will work without that requirement.
Netmeeting works on XP and below....
There is no requirement on NetMeeting Client or host to be XP
There is an extra step in the NetMeeting install...


From joegill at removethis  Sun Jan  2 16:40:44 2005
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Sun Jan  2 16:45:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr95o3$sc6$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr96j0$svg$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr9mm2$6jl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr9nbc$6un$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cr9poo$8kg$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Mr K. Mean" <47p772ok02@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:cr9nbc$6un$1@news.spamcop.net...
> Joe Gill wrote:
> >
> > But NetMeeting's Component will work without that requirement.
> > Netmeeting works on XP and below....
> > There is no requirement on NetMeeting Client or host to be XP
> > There is an extra step in the NetMeeting install...
>
> But what do you use as the NetMeeting server then?  We used to use that
> a lot in my company, but they didn't want to maintain the server anymore
> and shut it down.  Do you have a client also running as a server?

I didn't think the 'server' was a requirement, except when you needed to go
after PC's via the 'directory'.
Also, I think you can start NM, without the directory...


From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sun Jan  2 16:57:59 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sun Jan  2 20:00:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Wish me luck!
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>

Today begins what will likely turn into several weeks of swearing, 
screaming, bitching, moaning, hair-pulling, and the like.

My agenda for this week:

1) Install Debian Linux on a second hard disk for my PowerMac G5.
   a. This will be somewhat entertaining, as I'll likely do something 
horribly wrong and end up not being able to boot back into Mac OS X, 
thus being trapped in an incredibly powerful operating system I don't 
fully understand.
   b. Hopefully I'm kidding about a.

2) After #1 is completed, install Debian Linux on my Cobalt RaQ3 
miniserver.
   a. This will be exceptionally entertaining, as it involves flashing 
the BIOS to an unsupported version, thus voiding the already-expired 
warranty. If I mess this up, it'll be "Honey, hand me the soldering 
iron..."
   b. Assuming I can successfully install this, then I will need to 
figure out precisely how to set it up for acting as a server again with 
a similar web-based control panel as the Cobalt system, act as a good 
NTP server, etc. This has been done before by others...but I just know 
that nothing will go as intended. :)

3) Collect the FedEx parcel with all the various PC components for 
building the PC under my desk. I've already picked up and mounted the 
CD-RW/DVD-ROM and 80mm case fan that I got from CompUSA (at *shudder* 
RETAIL PRICES!), so the case is all prepared for the parts. Assembling 
the components shouldn't be terribly difficult, and it may prove 
somewhat easier for tweaking around with the RaQ.

Talk about steep learning curve...

THE MADNESS! WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDRE...er...GEEKS! YES! WHY 
WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE GEEKS?!

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sun Jan  2 18:00:57 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sun Jan  2 21:05:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-36DF24.18005702012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>,
 Pete Stephenson <pete+usenet@heypete.com> wrote:

> 1) Install Debian Linux on a second hard disk for my PowerMac G5.

Curses! It would appear that Debian does not yet support the PowerPC G5 
processor and it's 64-bit architecture. This is a Bad Thing(tm).

I guess my plans just got put on hold a bit, until I can build the PC 
and put Windows and Debian on it.

Perhaps having more "generic/standard" hardware would help out a bit, 
though it looks like Debian isn't quite ready for the AMD64 architecture 
either.

Damnit, I just just /have/ to get bleeding-edge high-performance stuff 
like 64-bit PowerPC G5 and 64-bit Athlon64 CPUs. *shakes fist at self*

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From MikeE at ster.invalid  Sun Jan  2 18:38:56 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Sun Jan  2 21:40:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pete+usenet-36DF24.18005702012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <crab5t$jqf$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> Curses! It would appear that Debian does not yet support the PowerPC
> G5 processor and it's 64-bit architecture. This is a Bad Thing(tm).

http://snipurl.com/bqar snurled googlegroups.uk 49 articles starting
from

Newsgroups: linux.debian.ports.powerpc
Subject: debian ppc64
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:10:09 +0100
Message-ID: <378fn-3uT-17@gated-at.bofh.it>

news:378fn-3uT-17@gated-at.bofh.it

-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From joegill at removethis  Sun Jan  2 22:21:07 2005
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Sun Jan  2 22:25:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pete+usenet-36DF24.18005702012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <cradmt$llg$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Pete Stephenson" <pete+usenet@heypete.com> wrote in message
news:pete+usenet-36DF24.18005702012005@news.cesmail.net...
> In article <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>,
>  Pete Stephenson <pete+usenet@heypete.com> wrote:
>
> > 1) Install Debian Linux on a second hard disk for my PowerMac G5.
>
> Curses! It would appear that Debian does not yet support the PowerPC G5
> processor and it's 64-bit architecture. This is a Bad Thing(tm).
>
> I guess my plans just got put on hold a bit, until I can build the PC
> and put Windows and Debian on it.
>
> Perhaps having more "generic/standard" hardware would help out a bit,
> though it looks like Debian isn't quite ready for the AMD64 architecture
> either.
>
not directly answering your question(s) but..
Have you been to...
http://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/




From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sun Jan  2 19:42:58 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sun Jan  2 22:45:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pete+usenet-36DF24.18005702012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cradmt$llg$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-DF2A62.19425802012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <cradmt$llg$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Joe Gill" <joegill@removethis@prodigy.net> wrote:

> not directly answering your question(s) but..
> Have you been to...
> http://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/

Yes, I have.

http://www.debian.org/ports/ states:

"Ports that haven't been released yet

The following ports never took part in a Debian stable release, but they 
should appear in one, eventually.

[AMD64]

This is a port to the 64 bit AMD64 (Opteron) processors. The goal is to 
support both 32bit- and 64bit-userland on this architecture."

Once it comes out in a stable release, then I'll download it...but right 
now, I'm not terribly interested in testing it out. I've got enough 
troubles as it is. :-P

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From nobody at devnull.spamcop.net  Mon Jan  3 08:46:58 2005
From: nobody at devnull.spamcop.net (Steve Gilder)
Date: Mon Jan  3 08:50:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr95o3$sc6$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr96j0$svg$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr9mm2$6jl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr9nbc$6un$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr9poo$8kg$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crbick$c4c$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Joe Gill" <joegill@removethis@prodigy.net> wrote in message 
news:cr9poo$8kg$1@news.spamcop.net...
>
> "Mr K. Mean" <47p772ok02@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
> news:cr9nbc$6un$1@news.spamcop.net...
>> Joe Gill wrote:
>> >
>> > But NetMeeting's Component will work without that requirement.
>> > Netmeeting works on XP and below....
>> > There is no requirement on NetMeeting Client or host to be XP
>> > There is an extra step in the NetMeeting install...
>>
>> But what do you use as the NetMeeting server then?  We used to use that
>> a lot in my company, but they didn't want to maintain the server anymore
>> and shut it down.  Do you have a client also running as a server?
>
> I didn't think the 'server' was a requirement, except when you needed to 
> go
> after PC's via the 'directory'.
> Also, I think you can start NM, without the directory...
>
>
NM is a peer-to-peer setup. No server is needed. I'm not sure what *via the 
'directory'* means - DNS or WINS? NM works fine using the IP of the machine 
to be admin/d. 

From avoozl at spamcop.net  Mon Jan  3 06:34:39 2005
From: avoozl at spamcop.net (Chris F. Willoughby)
Date: Mon Jan  3 09:35:09 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pete+usenet-36DF24.18005702012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <crbl5p$dg5$1@news.spamcop.net>

Try freebsd :)  That shouldn't be ALL that different from what you are used to..

www.freebsd.org


"Pete Stephenson" <pete+usenet@heypete.com> wrote in message news:pete+usenet-36DF24.18005702012005@news.cesmail.net...
> In article <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>,
> Pete Stephenson <pete+usenet@heypete.com> wrote:
> 
>> 1) Install Debian Linux on a second hard disk for my PowerMac G5.
> 
> Curses! It would appear that Debian does not yet support the PowerPC G5 
> processor and it's 64-bit architecture. This is a Bad Thing(tm).
> 
> I guess my plans just got put on hold a bit, until I can build the PC 
> and put Windows and Debian on it.
> 
> Perhaps having more "generic/standard" hardware would help out a bit, 
> though it looks like Debian isn't quite ready for the AMD64 architecture 
> either.
> 
> Damnit, I just just /have/ to get bleeding-edge high-performance stuff 
> like 64-bit PowerPC G5 and 64-bit Athlon64 CPUs. *shakes fist at self*
> 
> -- 
> Pete Stephenson
> HeyPete.com
From joegill at removethis  Mon Jan  3 10:42:39 2005
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Mon Jan  3 10:45:10 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr95o3$sc6$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr96j0$svg$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr9mm2$6jl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr9nbc$6un$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr9poo$8kg$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<crbick$c4c$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crbp59$fn9$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Steve Gilder" <nobody@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:crbick$c4c$1@news.spamcop.net...
>
> "Joe Gill" <joegill@removethis@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:cr9poo$8kg$1@news.spamcop.net...
> >
> > "Mr K. Mean" <47p772ok02@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
> > news:cr9nbc$6un$1@news.spamcop.net...
> >> Joe Gill wrote:
> >> >
> >> > But NetMeeting's Component will work without that requirement.
> >> > Netmeeting works on XP and below....
> >> > There is no requirement on NetMeeting Client or host to be XP
> >> > There is an extra step in the NetMeeting install...
> >>
> >> But what do you use as the NetMeeting server then?  We used to use that
> >> a lot in my company, but they didn't want to maintain the server
anymore
> >> and shut it down.  Do you have a client also running as a server?
> >
> > I didn't think the 'server' was a requirement, except when you needed to
> > go
> > after PC's via the 'directory'.
> > Also, I think you can start NM, without the directory...
> >
> >
> NM is a peer-to-peer setup. No server is needed. I'm not sure what *via
the
> 'directory'* means - DNS or WINS? NM works fine using the IP of the
machine
> to be admin/d.
>
What I mean by 'via the directory' is using an ILS server


From SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com  Mon Jan  3 09:38:11 2005
From: SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com (Spam N Scams Reporter)
Date: Mon Jan  3 12:40:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Newsgroup filter needed
Message-ID: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net>

Thunderbird doesn't have a very good newsgroup filter. Any suggestions 
on what I can use without changing readers? XP Pro doesn't seem to like 
nfilter.

Thanks,
Brian
From baloo at ursine.dyndns.org  Mon Jan  3 09:58:11 2005
From: baloo at ursine.dyndns.org (Paul Johnson)
Date: Mon Jan  3 13:00:11 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <1104775091.992403@ursine.dyndns.org>

Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:

> Thunderbird doesn't have a very good newsgroup filter. Any suggestions
> on what I can use without changing readers? XP Pro doesn't seem to like
> nfilter.

You've eliminated all possible Windows options.

-- 
Paul Johnson
baloo@ursine.dyndns.org
http://ursine.dyndns.org/~baloo/
From user at domain.invalid  Mon Jan  3 12:55:23 2005
From: user at domain.invalid (User)
Date: Mon Jan  3 13:55:08 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
In-Reply-To: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crc4ds$ne2$1@news.spamcop.net>

On 03.01.2005 11:38, Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> Thunderbird doesn't have a very good newsgroup filter. Any suggestions 
> on what I can use without changing readers? XP Pro doesn't seem to like 
> nfilter.
> 
> Thanks,
> Brian

"Not a very good newsgroup filter" is rather generic and a little too
generalized.

List a few more details of what you expect in a "filter" and we'll see
what we can come up with.
From gospamming at yourdomain.invalid  Mon Jan  3 18:58:48 2005
From: gospamming at yourdomain.invalid (D.Diaz)
Date: Mon Jan  3 14:00:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95D3CB3F98D7xnddmxn@216.154.195.61>

Spam N Scams Reporter <SCNews.5.myspamgobbler@spamgourmet.com> wrote in 
news:crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net:

> Thunderbird doesn't have a very good newsgroup filter. Any suggestions 
> on what I can use without changing readers? XP Pro doesn't seem to like 
> nfilter.
> 

You could put a Hamster between your reader and your newsfeed.

http://www.tglsoft.de/misc/hamster_en.htm

-- 
Daniel Diaz
SpamCop User
From SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com  Mon Jan  3 11:43:23 2005
From: SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com (Spam N Scams Reporter)
Date: Mon Jan  3 14:45:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
In-Reply-To: <crc4ds$ne2$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net> <crc4ds$ne2$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crc78v$plq$1@news.spamcop.net>

User wrote:
> On 03.01.2005 11:38, Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:
> 
>  --- Original Message ---
> 
> 
>>Thunderbird doesn't have a very good newsgroup filter. Any suggestions 
>>on what I can use without changing readers? XP Pro doesn't seem to like 
>>nfilter.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Brian
> 
> 
> "Not a very good newsgroup filter" is rather generic and a little too
> generalized.
> 
> List a few more details of what you expect in a "filter" and we'll see
> what we can come up with.

What I'm looking for specifically is to be able to filter by IP range 
among other things.
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Mon Jan  3 21:31:32 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Mon Jan  3 15:35:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <slrnctjat4.lbg.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 09:38:11 -0800, Spam N Scams Reporter coughed into
spamcop.geeks and left this in <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net>:

> Thunderbird doesn't have a very good newsgroup filter. Any suggestions 
> on what I can use without changing readers? XP Pro doesn't seem to like 
> nfilter.

You could try a news PROVIDER that gives you a clean feed in the first 
place. I've been using SuperNews for a while now and I'm pleased with 
them.

-- 
Steve

If carrots are so good for the eyes, how come I see so many dead rabbits
on the highway?
From nobody at spamcop.net  Mon Jan  3 17:24:27 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (indigo)
Date: Mon Jan  3 17:25:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <crcgms$o1$1@news.spamcop.net>



Pete Stephenson wrote:
 I've already picked up and mounted the
> CD-RW/DVD-ROM and 80mm case fan that I got from CompUSA

Erm....how do you know you mounted the case fan in the right place if you
don't have the MoBo yet? Blowing air into the side of a hard drive or
sumthin' else ain't going to do much good......


From nobody at spamcop.net  Mon Jan  3 17:27:09 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (indigo)
Date: Mon Jan  3 17:30:11 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrnctjat4.lbg.nobody@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <crcgrt$v6$1@news.spamcop.net>



Steven Maesslein wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 09:38:11 -0800, Spam N Scams Reporter coughed into
> spamcop.geeks and left this in <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net>:
>
> > Thunderbird doesn't have a very good newsgroup filter. Any
> > suggestions on what I can use without changing readers? XP Pro
> > doesn't seem to like nfilter.
>
> You could try a news PROVIDER that gives you a clean feed in the first
> place. I've been using SuperNews for a while now and I'm pleased with
> them.

Eh, can you get SuperNews to carry the SC groups and JT to agree? I thought
not......I'm guessing at why S'N'SR wants his filter, of course ;-)


From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Mon Jan  3 23:40:41 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Mon Jan  3 17:45:22 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrnctjat4.lbg.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<crcgrt$v6$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <slrnctjif9.m1v.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:27:09 -0500, indigo coughed into spamcop.geeks and
left this in <crcgrt$v6$1@news.spamcop.net>:

> Eh, can you get SuperNews to carry the SC groups and JT to agree? I thought
> not......I'm guessing at why S'N'SR wants his filter, of course ;-)

Good point.

I was working on the assumption that the SC froups aren't the only ones
on USENET (in fact they aren't on USENET at all). Of course, if the
original problem is the shenanigans currently going on in another froup
(that I don't follow) then the SuperNews "solution" is worthless.

-- 
Steve

Your fault: core dumped
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Mon Jan  3 23:42:00 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Mon Jan  3 17:45:24 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crcgms$o1$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <slrnctjiho.m1v.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:24:27 -0500, indigo coughed into spamcop.geeks and
left this in <crcgms$o1$1@news.spamcop.net>:

> Erm....how do you know you mounted the case fan in the right place if you
> don't have the MoBo yet? Blowing air into the side of a hard drive or
> sumthin' else ain't going to do much good......

It could do some good for the hard drive. Some of them critters get 
quite hot. :)

-- 
Steve

unix soit qui mal y pense
From nobody at spamcop.net  Mon Jan  3 17:47:05 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (indigo)
Date: Mon Jan  3 17:50:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crcgms$o1$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrnctjiho.m1v.nobody@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <crci19$28n$1@news.spamcop.net>



Steven Maesslein wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:24:27 -0500, indigo coughed into spamcop.geeks
> and left this in <crcgms$o1$1@news.spamcop.net>:
>
> > Erm....how do you know you mounted the case fan in the right place
> > if you don't have the MoBo yet? Blowing air into the side of a hard
> > drive or sumthin' else ain't going to do much good......
>
> It could do some good for the hard drive. Some of them critters get
> quite hot. :)

Heh. He bought an AMD [1] chip, maybe he needs a second fan then ;-)

[1] I quite like AMD chips for cost vs. performance reasons, but they can
fry in an instant.


From nobody at spamcop.net  Mon Jan  3 17:48:59 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (indigo)
Date: Mon Jan  3 17:50:07 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrnctjat4.lbg.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<crcgrt$v6$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrnctjif9.m1v.nobody@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <crci4r$29h$1@news.spamcop.net>



Steven Maesslein wrote:
>
> I was working on the assumption that the SC froups aren't the only
> ones on USENET (in fact they aren't on USENET at all). Of course, if
> the original problem is the shenanigans currently going on in another
> froup (that I don't follow) then the SuperNews "solution" is
> worthless.

I wish Google groups were fed from Supernews, fscking Dipslime has made
NANAE totally worthless via web access.


From user at domain.invalid  Mon Jan  3 17:56:20 2005
From: user at domain.invalid (User)
Date: Mon Jan  3 19:00:08 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
In-Reply-To: <crc78v$plq$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net> <crc4ds$ne2$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<crc78v$plq$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crcm2f$508$1@news.spamcop.net>

On 03.01.2005 13:43, Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> User wrote:
>> On 03.01.2005 11:38, Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:
>> 
>>  --- Original Message ---
>> 
>> 
>>>Thunderbird doesn't have a very good newsgroup filter. Any suggestions 
>>>on what I can use without changing readers? XP Pro doesn't seem to like 
>>>nfilter.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Brian
>> 
>> 
>> "Not a very good newsgroup filter" is rather generic and a little too
>> generalized.
>> 
>> List a few more details of what you expect in a "filter" and we'll see
>> what we can come up with.
> 
> What I'm looking for specifically is to be able to filter by IP range 
> among other things.

Ok, that cannot be done. Enter an RFE (Request for enhancement) bug on
it. That's the only way it will be added, if ever. 50/50 is better than
100% not being added.

Can you filter an IP range in any other app?
From TJLWBECGSGWU at spammotel.com  Tue Jan  4 00:05:56 2005
From: TJLWBECGSGWU at spammotel.com (Mathew Hendry)
Date: Mon Jan  3 19:10:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95D3CB3F98D7xnddmxn@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <p1njt0p7dei4rv293dbqb2tlpgat043bae@4ax.com>

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 18:58:48 +0000 (UTC), "D.Diaz"
<gospamming@yourdomain.invalid> wrote:

>Spam N Scams Reporter <SCNews.5.myspamgobbler@spamgourmet.com> wrote in 
>news:crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net:
>
>> Thunderbird doesn't have a very good newsgroup filter. Any suggestions 
>> on what I can use without changing readers? XP Pro doesn't seem to like 
>> nfilter.
>
>You could put a Hamster between your reader and your newsfeed.
>
>http://www.tglsoft.de/misc/hamster_en.htm

Seconded. Fine little program that one, been running it for years. Haven't
had to mess with filters too much but they seem to be pretty flexible. It
does turn your news access into a two-stage process though, unlike nfilter
which I believe works as a proxy.

-- mat.

From TMHRVMFWREVN at spammotel.com  Tue Jan  4 00:35:16 2005
From: TMHRVMFWREVN at spammotel.com (Rob)
Date: Mon Jan  3 19:40:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net> <crc4ds$ne2$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<crc78v$plq$1@news.spamcop.net> <crcm2f$508$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crcofl$75p$1@news.spamcop.net>


"User" <user@domain.invalid> wrote in message
news:crcm2f$508$1@news.spamcop.net...
> On 03.01.2005 13:43, Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
> > User wrote:
> >> On 03.01.2005 11:38, Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:
> >>
> >>  --- Original Message ---
> >>
> >>
> >>>Thunderbird doesn't have a very good newsgroup filter. Any suggestions
> >>>on what I can use without changing readers? XP Pro doesn't seem to like
> >>>nfilter.
> >>>
> >>>Thanks,
> >>>Brian
> >>
> >>
> >> "Not a very good newsgroup filter" is rather generic and a little too
> >> generalized.
> >>
> >> List a few more details of what you expect in a "filter" and we'll see
> >> what we can come up with.
> >
> > What I'm looking for specifically is to be able to filter by IP range
> > among other things.
>
> Ok, that cannot be done. Enter an RFE (Request for enhancement) bug on
> it. That's the only way it will be added, if ever. 50/50 is better than
> 100% not being added.
>
> Can you filter an IP range in any other app?

I know of one newseader that may have that ability, XanaNews
http://www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/d9xananews.htm .  It can filter on To, From,
Subject, Anything in Header (and I really mean anything) and anything in the
body. I'm not sure about filtering on IP range, but, more info can be
gleamed from the XanaNews newsgroups on  talkto.net  It's free and very
flexible.  I must point out that I was having several PC freezes when I
closed it down and then shut down my PC quite some versions back, I blamed
it on XanaNews, but, since then I found out it was due to eight or so
capacitors burned out on my MB.  I haven't fired it up or downloaded the
latest version since new MB so can't exactly say how stable it is, but, I
seemed to be the only person having trouble at that time.  Keep thinking of
giving it another go as I really liked its features.  I originally installed
it when I and others were having a problem with a Troll in another NG who
was impersonating other peoples identities and I had no problem with him
after that.

Rob


From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Mon Jan  3 17:42:37 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Mon Jan  3 20:45:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crcgms$o1$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-A4B2F3.17423703012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <crcgms$o1$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:

> Erm....how do you know you mounted the case fan in the right place if you
> don't have the MoBo yet? Blowing air into the side of a hard drive or
> sumthin' else ain't going to do much good......

The 80mm grille in the back of the case (the only one, I might add) 
seems to suggest a logical place for an 80mm case fan. :-P

That said, I'm somewhat irked. I ordered two USB/VGA KVM cables, and 
they sent me one USB/VGA and one PS-2/VGA cable. Called up NewEgg, and 
they're sending me the USB one right away and said I can keep the PS-2 
one.

Also, they didn't include any sort of CPU cooler/heatsink/fan/etc. Just 
a CPU in a little plastic case with some foam to protect the pins. 
Mildly irritating, but oh well.

Everything's wired up, but I'm not turning the thing on until I get that 
CPU fan. *rushes off to CompUSA*

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From MikeE at ster.invalid  Mon Jan  3 18:32:08 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Mon Jan  3 21:35:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net> <crc088$k96$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crcv50$b9t$1@news.spamcop.net>

Mr K. Mean wrote:
> Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:
>>  XP Pro
>> doesn't seem to like nfilter.
>
> Ahh, you noticed that too?  I tried installing it and it said it
> wasn't a valid archive or something.

I'm reading in newsgroups that it does.

<snip>
Message-ID: <herlb.161102$bo1.79738@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
> Has anyone used NFilter with XP Pro?

I use it on XP Home, XP Pro, Win2K and Win2K Advanced Server. All work
fine.
</snip>


-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com  Mon Jan  3 19:29:59 2005
From: SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com (Spam N Scams Reporter)
Date: Mon Jan  3 22:35:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
In-Reply-To: <crcgrt$v6$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrnctjat4.lbg.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<crcgrt$v6$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crd2jr$d97$1@news.spamcop.net>

indigo wrote:
> Steven Maesslein wrote:
> 
>>On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 09:38:11 -0800, Spam N Scams Reporter coughed into
>>spamcop.geeks and left this in <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net>:
>>
>>
>>>Thunderbird doesn't have a very good newsgroup filter. Any
>>>suggestions on what I can use without changing readers? XP Pro
>>>doesn't seem to like nfilter.
>>
>>You could try a news PROVIDER that gives you a clean feed in the first
>>place. I've been using SuperNews for a while now and I'm pleased with
>>them.
> 
> 
> Eh, can you get SuperNews to carry the SC groups and JT to agree? I thought
> not......I'm guessing at why S'N'SR wants his filter, of course ;-)
> 
> 

I think you probably guessed right. I was looking for a way to killfile 
a morphing troll.

I've done a bit of investigating on this troll in here and come to find 
out, he doesn't have that many ip addresses that he works from. It 
appears to me that many are from his isp and he just unplugs and grabs a 
new address. I still have a way to go with it.

For those interested, here's a list of those that I'm 100% certain that 
he has used. Also, I have a lot of documentation if anyone is interested 
in seeing it. Email me at 
canceltrolls.with.myspamgobbler@spamgourmet.com :)

I'll be contacting the FBI with this report tomorrow. They owe me a 
favor for something that I did for them awhile. I wouldn't be too 
surprised that they go after this slime. I've got evidence that makes 
this a likely RICO case.

Don't report these addresses yet. They will probably want to set up some 
surveillance. I think that he is gone from here. He won't be able to 
cancel posts anymore and just about everyone is ignoring him.


Shaw Cable - his ISP? This is what I was wanting a filter that could 
take a range for.

24.71.236.46
24.71.236.48
24.71.236.50
24.71.236.107
24.71.236.140
24.71.236.155
24.71.236.191
24.71.237.37
24.71.237.71
24.71.237.73
24.71.237.76
24.71.237.81
24.71.237.91
24.71.237.94
24.71.237.110
24.71.237.124
24.71.237.127
24.71.237.140
24.71.237.147
24.71.237.148
24.71.237.158
24.71.237.195
24.71.237.244
24.71.239.40
24.71.239.59
24.71.239.75
24.71.239.95
24.71.239.112
24.71.239.120
24.71.239.126
24.71.239.169
24.71.239.219

63.164.60.12
85.32.57.194
199.203.54.66
220.134.241.65

There are some others, but these are the main ones that he has used. The 
Shaw Cable is the problematic one.

If anyone wants to help and do a workup on these addresses it would sure 
help. I'm trying to do some other things as well.

Brian
From SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com  Mon Jan  3 19:40:09 2005
From: SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com (Spam N Scams Reporter)
Date: Mon Jan  3 22:45:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Ping Hey Pete
Message-ID: <crd36s$djf$1@news.spamcop.net>

It appears that you posted a spamcop report about Spam-L. What's up with 
that? 
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/news.admin.net-abuse.sightings/msg/c10e657dbc54f905?dmode=source

Brian
From notspam at alias.hotpop.com  Mon Jan  3 21:32:01 2005
From: notspam at alias.hotpop.com (JV)
Date: Mon Jan  3 23:35:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
In-Reply-To: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crd67d$fiq$1@news.spamcop.net>

Mike Easter wrote:
> I have a couple of friends for/with whom my life would be a lot simpler
> if I were doing a little remote admin for, rather than the tedium of
> listening to a description over the 'phone or email and having to send
> instructions and screenshots and such.
> 
> What I'm thinking about doing is using VNC as a server on the friends'
> machines and the VNC client/viewer on my end.  We are all on cable
> modems and I'm on a LAN behind my switch router.  The other two are
> straightup to the modem.  There's good documentation and a lot of other
> good features to the VNC besides free.
> 
> Since there's really no security for the RFB remote frame buffer
> communication in 'straight' VNC and I'll be going across the 'net, I'm
> figgering that the Kaboodle gizmo on each end is the way to straighten
> that out.  I suppose some heavy duty encryption gurus might find
> kaboodle lightweight, but this isn't nuclear energy secrets we're
> dealing with here.
> 
> Those friends are susceptible to ad/spy/mal/ware, and the limit of their
> skills seems to be running AdAware and an AV agent.  I need to be able
> to take a little looksee from time to time with some more ware, and
> then, if they actually need hands on, they'll have to get Geek Patrol in
> one place and the other one has already had some help from a local
> outfit called Circuit Board.
> 
> http://www.realvnc.com/what.html
> http://www.kaboodle.org/index.html
> 
Direct dial is by far the only answer these days. We are working 
backward in that area.
From joegill at removethis  Tue Jan  4 00:15:33 2005
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Tue Jan  4 00:20:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Remote admin
References: <cr6qr3$dvv$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr95o3$sc6$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr96j0$svg$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr9mm2$6jl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cr9nbc$6un$1@news.spamcop.net> <cr9poo$8kg$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<crbick$c4c$1@news.spamcop.net> <crbp59$fn9$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<crbq04$g9s$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crd8pj$hn1$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Mr K. Mean" <47p772ok02@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:crbq04$g9s$1@news.spamcop.net...
> Joe Gill wrote:
> > "Steve Gilder" <nobody@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote in message
> > news:crbick$c4c$1@news.spamcop.net...
>
> >>NM is a peer-to-peer setup. No server is needed. I'm not sure what *via
> > the
> >>'directory'* means - DNS or WINS? NM works fine using the IP of the
> > machine
> >>to be admin/d.
> >
> > What I mean by 'via the directory' is using an ILS server
>
> The only way I have used NetMeeting and probably what has confused me is
> we had a central server for the company, like netmeeting.company.com,
> and you logged into that and called people out of the directory there
> and then you could do the desktop sharing and the rest of that after you
> were connected together.
>
> Are you saying that it is enough to know the machine name of who you are
> calling and it will work that way then?  How do you call people without
> the directory?

By IP address....
Or there is supposedly some method via Windows Messenger


From nobody at nowhere.com.INVALID  Mon Jan  3 22:10:05 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.com.INVALID (GregR)
Date: Tue Jan  4 01:15:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
In-Reply-To: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crdbvv$jjo$1@news.spamcop.net>

Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:

> Thunderbird doesn't have a very good newsgroup filter. Any suggestions 
> on what I can use without changing readers? XP Pro doesn't seem to like 
> nfilter.

I used D-News (http://netwinsite.com/dnews.htm) for a while to filter 
out a couple of Really Annoying People on the .social group, but that 
might be overkill for what you're looking for (it's a full-blown news 
server, so don't dive in unless you're prepared to deal with the 
overhead of setting one up).

It worked great (those two annoying people quickly became non-people 
:-)), but it was kinda slow on a dial-up connection.  If the current 
situation keeps up I may have to resurrect it once I get DSL installed.

-- 

GregR - Another Beemer Biker ...o&o>

I voted for Kerry, it's not my problem.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful,
and so are we. They never stop thinking about
new ways to harm our country and our people,
and neither do we."

George W. Bush
8/5/04
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Tue Jan  4 11:32:04 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Tue Jan  4 05:35:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrnctjat4.lbg.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<crcgrt$v6$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrnctjif9.m1v.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<crci4r$29h$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <slrnctks54.t9.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:48:59 -0500, indigo coughed into spamcop.geeks and
left this in <crci4r$29h$1@news.spamcop.net>:

> I wish Google groups were fed from Supernews, fscking Dipslime has made
> NANAE totally worthless via web access.

How ever much I hate to say it, I think that Dipslime has succeeded in
making NANAE totally unusable. Not because of the drivel he posts to
that froup but because of the crap he posts to other groups with the
followup set to NANAE, and everyone replying to the crap (and therefore
posting to NANAE) saying "Hey, that wasn't me".

Filtering out the sporgeries themselves is easy enough. Filtering out 
the backscatter is a totally different problem.

-- 
Steve

Your fault: core dumped
From nobody at spamcop.net  Tue Jan  4 10:08:19 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (indigo)
Date: Tue Jan  4 10:10:09 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net> <crc088$k96$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<crcv50$b9t$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crebh3$6ka$1@news.spamcop.net>



Mike Easter wrote:
> Mr K. Mean wrote:
> > Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:
> >>  XP Pro
> >> doesn't seem to like nfilter.
> >
> > Ahh, you noticed that too?  I tried installing it and it said it
> > wasn't a valid archive or something.
>
> I'm reading in newsgroups that it does.
>
> <snip>
> Message-ID: <herlb.161102$bo1.79738@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
> > Has anyone used NFilter with XP Pro?
>
> I use it on XP Home, XP Pro, Win2K and Win2K Advanced Server. All work
> fine.
> </snip>

I got the same error message when I tried to load it. *shrug*


From nobody at spamcop.net  Tue Jan  4 10:10:25 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (indigo)
Date: Tue Jan  4 10:15:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrnctjat4.lbg.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<crcgrt$v6$1@news.spamcop.net> <crd2jr$d97$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crebl2$6pt$1@news.spamcop.net>



Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:
> I think you probably guessed right. I was looking for a way to
> killfile a morphing troll.
>

I'm psychic that way sometimes ;-)

>
> I'll be contacting the FBI with this report tomorrow. They owe me a
> favor for something that I did for them awhile. I wouldn't be too
> surprised that they go after this slime. I've got evidence that makes
> this a likely RICO case.
>

Erm, why would they bother with something as trivial as this when they don't
even chase after real spammer scammers?


From nobody at spamcop.net  Tue Jan  4 10:12:29 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (indigo)
Date: Tue Jan  4 10:15:06 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Newsgroup filter needed
References: <crbvu6$k54$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrnctjat4.lbg.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<crcgrt$v6$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrnctjif9.m1v.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<crci4r$29h$1@news.spamcop.net> <slrnctks54.t9.nobody@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <crebot$6qr$1@news.spamcop.net>



Steven Maesslein wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:48:59 -0500, indigo coughed into spamcop.geeks
> and left this in <crci4r$29h$1@news.spamcop.net>:
>
> > I wish Google groups were fed from Supernews, fscking Dipslime has
> > made NANAE totally worthless via web access.
>
> How ever much I hate to say it, I think that Dipslime has succeeded in
> making NANAE totally unusable. Not because of the drivel he posts to
> that froup but because of the crap he posts to other groups with the
> followup set to NANAE, and everyone replying to the crap (and
> therefore posting to NANAE) saying "Hey, that wasn't me".

I agree.

>
> Filtering out the sporgeries themselves is easy enough. Filtering out
> the backscatter is a totally different problem.

I can't believe with all of the talent and resources those folks have over
there that they can't nab Dippy and his kin and get them locked up. Strange,
isn't it?


From nobody at spamcop.net  Tue Jan  4 10:17:58 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (indigo)
Date: Tue Jan  4 10:20:10 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crcgms$o1$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A4B2F3.17423703012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <crec36$75d$1@news.spamcop.net>



Pete Stephenson wrote:
> In article <crcgms$o1$1@news.spamcop.net>,
>  "indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> > Erm....how do you know you mounted the case fan in the right place
> > if you don't have the MoBo yet? Blowing air into the side of a hard
> > drive or sumthin' else ain't going to do much good......
>
> The 80mm grille in the back of the case (the only one, I might add)
> seems to suggest a logical place for an 80mm case fan. :-P

Au Contraire, mon ami! That fan will blow air perpendicular to whatever PCI
bus cards you have installed in that location, not a very efficient cooling
method. I had to install a case fan on the side of my box to blow air right
at my CPU cooler to lower the temps.

> Also, they didn't include any sort of CPU cooler/heatsink/fan/etc.
> Just a CPU in a little plastic case with some foam to protect the
> pins. Mildly irritating, but oh well.
>

Erm, not *their* fault, bud.......they sell chips to ways, OEM and retail
box. Only the retail box comes with the OEM fan, and it says so right on
their web page. Read closer next time ;-)

> Everything's wired up, but I'm not turning the thing on until I get
> that CPU fan. *rushes off to CompUSA*

DON'T FORGET THE THERMAL GREASE! ;-)


From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Tue Jan  4 18:11:39 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Tue Jan  4 21:15:09 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ping Hey Pete
References: <crd36s$djf$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-0D1B35.18113804012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <crd36s$djf$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 Spam N Scams Reporter <SCNews.5.myspamgobbler@spamgourmet.com> wrote:

> It appears that you posted a spamcop report about Spam-L. What's up 
> with that? 
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/news.admin.net-abuse.sightings/msg
> /c10e657 dbc54f905?dmode=source

Whoops!

Thanks for the heads-up. It must have accidentally been reported along 
with the spam I received. My mistake.

I've since removed it from Google Groups.

Sorry for any trouble this may have caused. :/

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Tue Jan  4 18:19:22 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Tue Jan  4 21:20:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<responseguard-191C5C.22215503012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-A866A0.18192204012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <responseguard-191C5C.22215503012005@news.cesmail.net>,
 "Bob W." <responseguard@hotmail.com> wrote:

> All I can say is... You're a better man than I, Pete Stephenson.

*laughs* Hardly.

Given all of that, here's my status so far:

PowerMac G5: No progress made. According to the Debian site, they're 
still working on stable G5 support.

Cobalt RaQ3: Attempting to install either the RaQ4 or RaQ550 operating 
system. Failed so far because the required net-install PC (the Cobalt 
has no CD drive, unfortunately) host doesn't have one of the very 
specific compatible LAN cards that it wants. More progress soon, 
hopefully.

Building-my-PC: After a brief trip to Fry's Electronics (truly a 
wonderful, if poorly-organized place), I now have a fairly bad-ass CPU 
fan and heat-sink that seems to work wonders. Indigo: Yes, I got some 
thermal grease. :-P The disk is partitioned four ways: (C:\ has the 
Windows XP OS and not much else, D:\ is the Windows paging file and 
nothing else, E:\ is all my files, documents, etc., and the remaining 
10Gb of unformatted space is for Debian when I install it) -- having all 
my files on a different partition than Windows itself is quite handy in 
case Things Go Horribly Wrong[1].

Now I think I'm going to take a break and actually go outside for a bit. 
Time to prepare for the ski-trip this weekend. Par-tay. :)

[1] On that note, do *not* install Windows XP Professional 64-bit 
"Preview" edition, even if it's free. Lots of problems, no discernable 
advantage, no Windows Update support (helloooooo viruses!), etc. I'll 
stick with the 32-bit version for now. I had to "format C:" to get rid 
of it and re-install the 32-bit version -- fortunately due to the 
partitioning structure, this resulted in only erasing Windows (and 
needing a few hours of Windows Updating and SP2-ing), rather than all my 
files. Very handy, that.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com  Tue Jan  4 21:20:59 2005
From: SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com (Spam N Scams Reporter)
Date: Wed Jan  5 00:25:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ping Hey Pete
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-0D1B35.18113804012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <crd36s$djf$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-0D1B35.18113804012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <crftg0$99h$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> In article <crd36s$djf$1@news.spamcop.net>,
>  Spam N Scams Reporter <SCNews.5.myspamgobbler@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>It appears that you posted a spamcop report about Spam-L. What's up 
>>with that? 
>>http://groups-beta.google.com/group/news.admin.net-abuse.sightings/msg
>>/c10e657 dbc54f905?dmode=source
> 
> 
> Whoops!
> 
> Thanks for the heads-up. It must have accidentally been reported along 
> with the spam I received. My mistake.
> 
> I've since removed it from Google Groups.
> 
> Sorry for any trouble this may have caused. :/
> 

You're welcome. I figured it was something you overlooked. Time to 
whitelist?

I let the Spam-L group know. Fortunately, SC has not added them to the 
blocklist as far as I can tell.

Brian
From SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com  Tue Jan  4 22:36:40 2005
From: SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com (Spam N Scams Reporter)
Date: Wed Jan  5 01:40:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Computer-related "Argh!"
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-0229B0.19084829122004@news.cesmail.net>
References: <pete+usenet-6ED978.04514228122004@news.cesmail.net>
	<cquvdo$pkk$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-0229B0.19084829122004@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <crg1tp$bqk$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> In article <cquvdo$pkk$1@news.spamcop.net>,
>  "Joe Gill" <joegill@removethis@prodigy.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Some thoughts/reflections.....
>>
<snip>

>>There is a not well-known tool from MS, call Microsoft Baseline Security
>>Analyzer which really helps to ensure things are patched up to date. It is
>>more of a 'techie' tool than home user tool, and points out some
>>exposure/fixes not made known to the home user.
>>Current version is 1.2.1 (it will self-update) Seach for it at
>>download.microsoft.com. Use keyword MBSA
> 
> 
> Interesting. I'll have to take a look at this. All I've ever really 
> known from Microsoft is their Windows and Office Update sites.
> 
> 
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=b13ebd6b-e258-4625-b0a3-64a4879f7798&DisplayLang=en
From nobody at nowhere.com.INVALID  Tue Jan  4 23:55:23 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.com.INVALID (GregR)
Date: Wed Jan  5 03:00:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-A866A0.18192204012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<responseguard-191C5C.22215503012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pete+usenet-A866A0.18192204012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <crg6hc$epj$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:

> Cobalt RaQ3: Attempting to install either the RaQ4 or RaQ550 operating 
> system. Failed so far because the required net-install PC (the Cobalt 
> has no CD drive, unfortunately) host doesn't have one of the very 
> specific compatible LAN cards that it wants. More progress soon, 
> hopefully.

Eh? Ethernet's such a "mature" technology by now that it should pretty 
much be a no-brainer. Everything that I've tried to connect with it in 
recent years has played nice together right out of the box, the LAN 
physical layer has always been the least of my worries.

Or am I missing something here?

> Building-my-PC: After a brief trip to Fry's Electronics (truly a 
> wonderful, if poorly-organized place), 

Heh... no trip to California (though I think they're now in a few other 
states as well) is complete for a techie without a trip to a Frys store.

Words usually fail me trying to describe the place, the usual reaction 
from visitors is an open-mouthed "Wow...".  :-)

 > D:\ is the Windows paging file and nothing else,

I assume that refers to the "swap file"(?).

> E:\ is all my files, documents, etc., 

Smart thinking - you'll only need to do regular backups on the data 
(with probably an occasional backup of the program partition to make any 
subsequent re-install chore a little easier to do).

 > having all
> my files on a different partition than Windows itself is quite handy in 
> case Things Go Horribly Wrong[1].

As I'm sure you'll find out, it's not a question of "if" but "when"... ;-)

> Now I think I'm going to take a break and actually go outside for a bit. 
> Time to prepare for the ski-trip this weekend. Par-tay. :)

<snarky geeky comment>

I take it that a LAN party isn't your idea of a good time?... ;-)

</comment>

OK, I'm leaving now...

-- 

GregR - Another Beemer Biker ...o&o>

I voted for Kerry, it's not my problem.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful,
and so are we. They never stop thinking about
new ways to harm our country and our people,
and neither do we."

George W. Bush
8/5/04
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan  5 02:34:53 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan  5 05:35:18 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wish me luck!
References: <pete+usenet-1B79C0.16575902012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<responseguard-191C5C.22215503012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pete+usenet-A866A0.18192204012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crg6hc$epj$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-438AEC.02345305012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <crg6hc$epj$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 GregR <nobody@nowhere.com.INVALID> wrote:

> Eh? Ethernet's such a "mature" technology by now that it should pretty 
> much be a no-brainer. Everything that I've tried to connect with it in 
> recent years has played nice together right out of the box, the LAN 
> physical layer has always been the least of my worries.
> 
> Or am I missing something here?

The Cobalt "restore" CD (I'm "restoring" the RaQ4 or 550 OS) is actually 
a self-booting linux CD. They've only included about eight ethernet card 
drivers on the CD, and since the OS is written on a CD it's impossible 
to modify. :/

> > Building-my-PC: After a brief trip to Fry's Electronics (truly a 
> > wonderful, if poorly-organized place), 
> 
> Heh... no trip to California (though I think they're now in a few other 
> states as well) is complete for a techie without a trip to a Frys store.

Quite so.

> Words usually fail me trying to describe the place, the usual reaction 
> from visitors is an open-mouthed "Wow...".  :-)

Yeah...what's with the different "themes" at each store? The one near me 
is Cowboys & Indians (or is it the Old West look?). There's an "Aztec 
Temple" one near us as well.

>  > D:\ is the Windows paging file and nothing else,
> 
> I assume that refers to the "swap file"(?).

Pretty much.

> > E:\ is all my files, documents, etc., 
> 
> Smart thinking - you'll only need to do regular backups on the data 
> (with probably an occasional backup of the program partition to make any 
> subsequent re-install chore a little easier to do).

Exactly. Alas, I'm not totally up to speed on Windows yet (I tend to 
avoid it like the plague), so even if I were to upgrade/format 
Windows/drive C, all the programs would break. Grr.

>  > having all
> > my files on a different partition than Windows itself is quite handy in 
> > case Things Go Horribly Wrong[1].
> 
> As I'm sure you'll find out, it's not a question of "if" but "when"... ;-)

With Windows? Yup.

> > Now I think I'm going to take a break and actually go outside for a bit. 
> > Time to prepare for the ski-trip this weekend. Par-tay. :)
> 
> <snarky geeky comment>
> 
> I take it that a LAN party isn't your idea of a good time?... ;-)

Oh, it is, but it tends to leave my room in shambles. In fact, my buddy 
Ross has been here for about three nights (ah the joys of having an 
extra sleeping bag and pillow) in a row helping me with this PC, then 
gaming on it. (I just bought Half-Life 2 today over Steam...very 
awesome.)

> </comment>
> 
> OK, I'm leaving now...

And I'm finally going to get some sleep. :)

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan  5 02:36:26 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan  5 05:40:18 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ping Hey Pete
References: <crd36s$djf$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-0D1B35.18113804012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crftg0$99h$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-D2DB6D.02362605012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <crftg0$99h$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 Spam N Scams Reporter <SCNews.5.myspamgobbler@spamgourmet.com> wrote:

> You're welcome. I figured it was something you overlooked. Time to 
> whitelist?

My filters generally put it in the inbox. I'll definitely put it in the 
whitelist now. Again, thanks for the heads up.

> I let the Spam-L group know. Fortunately, SC has not added them to the 
> blocklist as far as I can tell.

By "group" do you mean "mailing list", or "administrator"?

Yeah, SpamCop generally won't list on just one LART, thank goodness.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com  Wed Jan  5 12:04:57 2005
From: SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com (Spam N Scams Reporter)
Date: Wed Jan  5 15:10:18 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ping Hey Pete
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-D2DB6D.02362605012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <crd36s$djf$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-0D1B35.18113804012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crftg0$99h$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-D2DB6D.02362605012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <crhh9g$cg3$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> In article <crftg0$99h$1@news.spamcop.net>,
>  Spam N Scams Reporter <SCNews.5.myspamgobbler@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>You're welcome. I figured it was something you overlooked. Time to 
>>whitelist?
> 
> 
> My filters generally put it in the inbox. I'll definitely put it in the 
> whitelist now. Again, thanks for the heads up.
> 
> 
>>I let the Spam-L group know. Fortunately, SC has not added them to the 
>>blocklist as far as I can tell.
> 
> 
> By "group" do you mean "mailing list", or "administrator"?
> 
> Yeah, SpamCop generally won't list on just one LART, thank goodness.
> 

Your google post was brought up on the mailing list, so I let them know 
that it was a mistake and that you had canceled the post.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan  5 12:50:50 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan  5 15:55:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ping Hey Pete
References: <crd36s$djf$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-0D1B35.18113804012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crftg0$99h$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-D2DB6D.02362605012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crhh9g$cg3$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-312B00.12505005012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <crhh9g$cg3$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 Spam N Scams Reporter <SCNews.5.myspamgobbler@spamgourmet.com> wrote:

> Your google post was brought up on the mailing list, so I let them know 
> that it was a mistake and that you had canceled the post.

Ah, excellent. I'll have to go find that thread. I've been so busy 
locally it's been tough to read email. :)

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From MikeE at ster.invalid  Wed Jan  5 15:47:41 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Wed Jan  5 18:50:10 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ping Hey Pete
References: <crd36s$djf$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-0D1B35.18113804012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crftg0$99h$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-D2DB6D.02362605012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crhh9g$cg3$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crhu8f$lo3$1@news.spamcop.net>

Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:
> Your google post was brought up on the mailing list, so I let them
> know that it was a mistake and that you had canceled the post.

It's too late.  The Spam-L hitmen team have already been commissioned
and dispatched.

I think their names were Vincent and Jules.

-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com  Wed Jan  5 16:13:15 2005
From: SCNews.5.myspamgobbler at spamgourmet.com (Spam N Scams Reporter)
Date: Wed Jan  5 19:15:23 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ping Hey Pete
In-Reply-To: <crhu8f$lo3$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crd36s$djf$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-0D1B35.18113804012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crftg0$99h$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-D2DB6D.02362605012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crhh9g$cg3$1@news.spamcop.net> <crhu8f$lo3$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crhvqu$mnt$1@news.spamcop.net>

Mike Easter wrote:
> Spam N Scams Reporter wrote:
> 
>>Your google post was brought up on the mailing list, so I let them
>>know that it was a mistake and that you had canceled the post.
> 
> 
> It's too late.  The Spam-L hitmen team have already been commissioned
> and dispatched.
> 
> I think their names were Vincent and Jules.
> 

You weren't supposed to tell. They wanted it to be a surprise.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan  5 23:35:55 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Thu Jan  6 02:40:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ping Hey Pete
References: <crd36s$djf$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-0D1B35.18113804012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crftg0$99h$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-D2DB6D.02362605012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<crhh9g$cg3$1@news.spamcop.net> <crhu8f$lo3$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-511932.23355505012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <crhu8f$lo3$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Mike Easter" <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote:

> It's too late.  The Spam-L hitmen team have already been commissioned 
> and dispatched.

*hides under the bed*

Normal hitmen are one thing...SPAM-L hitmen are another thing entirely. 
Rather than cut off my fingers, they'll cut off my connectivity. :-P

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From borgholio at storymind.com  Thu Jan  6 18:37:30 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Thu Jan  6 21:40:19 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Spamcop Seti team update
Message-ID: <crksk6$fqm$1@news.spamcop.net>

Just about to break the 200,000 credit mark with 7 members and still going 
strong!  I updated the team from "United States" to "International" because 
I just remembered that Marj is Dutch.  :)  Seeing as how Seti@home is set to 
shut down within the next few months, anybody who has not yet converted to 
Seti@home 2 should do so now while the getting is good.
From user at domain.invalid  Thu Jan  6 23:58:27 2005
From: user at domain.invalid (User)
Date: Fri Jan  7 01:00:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Yahoo On SpamCop BL
Message-ID: <crl8bv$orq$1@news.spamcop.net>

My wife belongs to a list on Yahoo. Every day she has to reactivate her
account because 66.94.237.36 is listed in the SpamCop BL and is being
rejected by my mail server BL. What to do about this?

[66.94.237.36]
Translated Name: n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com
IP Address: 66.94.237.36

From nobody at devnull.spamcop.net  Fri Jan  7 02:29:15 2005
From: nobody at devnull.spamcop.net (WazoO)
Date: Fri Jan  7 03:30:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Yahoo On SpamCop BL
References: <crl8bv$orq$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crlh8r$u0l$1@news.spamcop.net>

"User" <user@domain.invalid> wrote in message
news:crl8bv$orq$1@news.spamcop.net...
> My wife belongs to a list on Yahoo. Every day she has to reactivate her
> account because 66.94.237.36 is listed in the SpamCop BL and is being
> rejected by my mail server BL. What to do about this?
>
> [66.94.237.36]
> Translated Name: n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com
> IP Address: 66.94.237.36

First suggestion would be to go to the spamcop newsgroup
(you posted in spamcop.geeks) and take a look though
the numerous threads on Yahoo Group blockages ... or
hit the web-based Forum and catch that version of the
same "problem" ... What to do basically depends on
what options are available to your wife for whatever
account you're talking about.


From skiwi at spamcop.net  Fri Jan  7 07:26:17 2005
From: skiwi at spamcop.net (sk1w1)
Date: Fri Jan  7 10:30:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Spamcop Seti team update
In-Reply-To: <crksk6$fqm$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crksk6$fqm$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crm9mp$duh$1@news.spamcop.net>

Borgholio wrote:
> Just about to break the 200,000 credit mark with 7 members and still 
> going strong!  I updated the team from "United States" to 
> "International" because I just remembered that Marj is Dutch.  :)  
> Seeing as how Seti@home is set to shut down within the next few months, 
> anybody who has not yet converted to Seti@home 2 should do so now while 
> the getting is good.


P.S. Feel free to join the group!       :-)
From agent01413 at my-deja.com  Fri Jan  7 21:18:43 2005
From: agent01413 at my-deja.com (Socks)
Date: Fri Jan  7 16:20:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Yahoo On SpamCop BL
References: <crl8bv$orq$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95D79180057F6agent01413MYDEJACOM@216.154.195.61>

User <user@domain.invalid> wrote in news:crl8bv$orq$1@news.spamcop.net:

> My wife belongs to a list on Yahoo. Every day she has to reactivate her
> account because 66.94.237.36 is listed in the SpamCop BL and is being
> rejected by my mail server BL. What to do about this?
> 
> [66.94.237.36]
> Translated Name: n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com
> IP Address: 66.94.237.36
> 

followups properly set

yahoo permits spammers to abuse their system, so yahoo gets reported

easiest solution is for your wife to set her subscription to digest so that 
it goes through a different server

another solution is to complain to yahoo about their policy that permits 
subscriptions without confirmations, and slow response to spam complaints

best solution is to move the list off yahoo. unfortunately, topica is even 
worse
From notabene at spamcop.net  Fri Jan  7 22:52:12 2005
From: notabene at spamcop.net (Nico Bartels)
Date: Fri Jan  7 16:55:06 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Yahoo On SpamCop BL
References: <crl8bv$orq$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <307775e5b33397cc80324085af36e836@nbartels.net>

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 23:58:27 -0600, User wrote:

>My wife belongs to a list on Yahoo. Every day she has to reactivate her
>account because 66.94.237.36 is listed in the SpamCop BL and is being
>rejected by my mail server BL. What to do about this?

Ask Yahoo..

Ciao!
                    |\ |
                    | \|ico

-- 
Wie wil er nog een 1000 MB Gmail account?
Mail me op nbartels@gmail.com
From user at domain.invalid  Sat Jan  8 06:46:07 2005
From: user at domain.invalid (User)
Date: Sat Jan  8 07:45:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Yahoo On SpamCop BL
In-Reply-To: <307775e5b33397cc80324085af36e836@nbartels.net>
References: <crl8bv$orq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<307775e5b33397cc80324085af36e836@nbartels.net>
Message-ID: <crokjt$sq6$1@news.spamcop.net>

On 07.01.2005 15:52, Nico Bartels wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 23:58:27 -0600, User wrote:
> 
>>My wife belongs to a list on Yahoo. Every day she has to reactivate her
>>account because 66.94.237.36 is listed in the SpamCop BL and is being
>>rejected by my mail server BL. What to do about this?
> 
> Ask Yahoo..
> 
> Ciao!
>                     |\ |
>                     | \|ico
> 

Gee whiz, never thought of that one ...
From borgholio at storymind.com  Sat Jan  8 15:26:59 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Sat Jan  8 18:30:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Dual CPU machines
Message-ID: <crpq7o$jhs$1@news.spamcop.net>

Do the processors in a Dual CPU machine need to be matched?  In other words, 
do they need to be the same revision, same model, same everything?
From Kilgallen at SpamCop.net  Sat Jan  8 22:37:59 2005
From: Kilgallen at SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)
Date: Sat Jan  8 23:40:09 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Dual CPU machines
References: <crpq7o$jhs$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dM8lL85UFdNb@eisner.encompasserve.org>

In article <crpq7o$jhs$1@news.spamcop.net>, Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com> writes:
> Do the processors in a Dual CPU machine need to be matched?  In other words, 
> do they need to be the same revision, same model, same everything?

They certainly do in all VAXen and Alphas to date.

VMS Developers have discussed the possibility of relaxing that
on future machines -- I don't remember whether it was just for
Itanium or also for Alpha.

Dual machines actually are not such a problem in this area --
consider a 128 cpu GS-1280 !
From borgholio at storymind.com  Sat Jan  8 21:04:08 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Sun Jan  9 00:05:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Dual CPU machines
In-Reply-To: <dM8lL85UFdNb@eisner.encompasserve.org>
References: <crpq7o$jhs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<dM8lL85UFdNb@eisner.encompasserve.org>
Message-ID: <crqdvr$k0$1@news.spamcop.net>

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> In article <crpq7o$jhs$1@news.spamcop.net>, Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com> writes:
> 
>>Do the processors in a Dual CPU machine need to be matched?  In other words, 
>>do they need to be the same revision, same model, same everything?
> 
> 
> They certainly do in all VAXen and Alphas to date.
> 
> VMS Developers have discussed the possibility of relaxing that
> on future machines -- I don't remember whether it was just for
> Itanium or also for Alpha.
> 
> Dual machines actually are not such a problem in this area --
> consider a 128 cpu GS-1280 !


I meant hardware-wise.  :)
From Kilgallen at SpamCop.net  Sun Jan  9 08:56:23 2005
From: Kilgallen at SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)
Date: Sun Jan  9 10:00:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Dual CPU machines
References: <crpq7o$jhs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<dM8lL85UFdNb@eisner.encompasserve.org> <crqdvr$k0$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <uSgFioYiGfvK@eisner.encompasserve.org>

In article <crqdvr$k0$1@news.spamcop.net>, Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com> writes:
> Larry Kilgallen wrote:
>> In article <crpq7o$jhs$1@news.spamcop.net>, Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com> writes:
>> 
>>>Do the processors in a Dual CPU machine need to be matched?  In other words, 
>>>do they need to be the same revision, same model, same everything?
>> 
>> 
>> They certainly do in all VAXen and Alphas to date.
>> 
>> VMS Developers have discussed the possibility of relaxing that
>> on future machines -- I don't remember whether it was just for
>> Itanium or also for Alpha.
>> 
>> Dual machines actually are not such a problem in this area --
>> consider a 128 cpu GS-1280 !
> 
> 
> I meant hardware-wise.  :)

Certainly you can plug in any CPU that is voltage-compatible.
But for most of us, the ability of the operating system to run
on it is crucial.

If course if you just want an additional CPU as a hot spare,
the VAX and Alpha consoles allow you to run them one at a time.
I have no idea about Itanium.
From nobody at nowhere.com.INVALID  Sun Jan  9 22:32:00 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.com.INVALID (GregR)
Date: Mon Jan 10 01:35:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] PGP Question
Message-ID: <crt7h1$lli$1@news.spamcop.net>

I've got an upcoming series of negotiations to coordinate, and figured 
that the easiest way to keep everyone on the same page would be to post 
updates on an Internet site as needed - Yahoo Groups comes to mind, and 
I've already got a few sites up and running that could be pressed into 
service for this project.

I'd also like to encrypt the updates to keep the opposing side out of 
what we're doing (duh...), and the first-guess easiest solution to that 
one would be to use PGP (easily available, and a free download for the 
limited version).

But... (and there's always a "but..."), I don't know of any easy way to 
encrypt posts for a group (seems like PGP has a "group" feature for 
e-mail, but this ain't the same thing).

I've thought about sharing a common public/private key combo and 
encrypting posts that way, but the group is large enough (~20) that 
there's a very real possibility of the key being compromised.  And that 
would not be A Good Thing (? SpamCop).

TIA for any ideas.  Even "out-of-the-box" suggestions are welcome.  :-)

-- 

GregR - Another Beemer Biker ...o&o>

I voted for Kerry, it's not my problem.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful,
and so are we. They never stop thinking about
new ways to harm our country and our people,
and neither do we."

George W. Bush
8/5/04
From skiwi at spamcop.net  Sun Jan  9 23:19:14 2005
From: skiwi at spamcop.net (sk1w1)
Date: Mon Jan 10 02:20:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: PGP Question
In-Reply-To: <crt7h1$lli$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crt7h1$lli$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crta9i$n3s$1@news.spamcop.net>

GregR wrote:

> I've got an upcoming series of negotiations to coordinate, and figured 
> that the easiest way to keep everyone on the same page would be to post 
> updates on an Internet site as needed - Yahoo Groups comes to mind, and 
> I've already got a few sites up and running that could be pressed into 
> service for this project.

[snip]

> TIA for any ideas.  Even "out-of-the-box" suggestions are welcome.  :-)

Have you considered using of the many 'Collaborative Web Sites'?

That way yoi can have common documents that people can 'check out', a 
messaging system, etc.... and the admin can change / delete user access 
as needed...

Just a thought...
From nobody at nowhere.com.INVALID  Sun Jan  9 23:33:09 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.com.INVALID (GregR)
Date: Mon Jan 10 02:35:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: PGP Question
In-Reply-To: <crta9i$n3s$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crt7h1$lli$1@news.spamcop.net> <crta9i$n3s$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crtb3m$nj2$1@news.spamcop.net>

sk1w1 wrote:

  > Have you considered using of the many 'Collaborative Web Sites'?
> 
> That way yoi can have common documents that people can 'check out', a 
> messaging system, etc.... and the admin can change / delete user access 
> as needed...

Yeah, that's pretty much what Yahoo Groups is (and I forget the name of 
the service from the late '90's that they took over and merged with YG - 
we used it a lot when designing the new & improved SC Directory Website, 
maybe Cat would remember it).

The username/password combo does provide one level of security, but 
these negotiations will be critical to enough people's financial future 
(several hundred) to where it's almost imperative to build in as many 
layers of security as possible.

> Just a thought...

Thanks.  :-)

-- 

GregR - Another Beemer Biker ...o&o>

I voted for Kerry, it's not my problem.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful,
and so are we. They never stop thinking about
new ways to harm our country and our people,
and neither do we."

George W. Bush
8/5/04
From nobody at nowhere.com.INVALID  Mon Jan 10 00:21:09 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.com.INVALID (GregR)
Date: Mon Jan 10 03:25:15 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: PGP Question
In-Reply-To: <crt7h1$lli$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crt7h1$lli$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crtdtm$pe9$1@news.spamcop.net>

GregR wrote:

> But... (and there's always a "but..."), I don't know of any easy way to 
> encrypt posts for a group (seems like PGP has a "group" feature for 
> e-mail, but this ain't the same thing).

I think I've just answered my own question - my version (6.5.8) includes 
a way to create groups by adding individual public keys to the group 
(which is just what we're looking for in this case).

Tends to create rather "long" encrypted messages, but it seems to work - 
in fact, if the opposition somehow manages to get a peek at the 
encrypted messages it might make them think that we're generating a lot 
more work-product than we really are.

And, of course, who's to say that all the posts will be "legitimate"... :-)

-- 

GregR - Another Beemer Biker ...o&o>

I voted for Kerry, it's not my problem.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful,
and so are we. They never stop thinking about
new ways to harm our country and our people,
and neither do we."

George W. Bush
8/5/04
From MikeE at ster.invalid  Mon Jan 10 02:58:42 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Mon Jan 10 06:00:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: PGP Question
References: <crt7h1$lli$1@news.spamcop.net> <crtdtm$pe9$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crtn23$v29$1@news.spamcop.net>

Last month I was scratching around some pgp information and it caused me
to make a gpg/pgp post in spamcop.

Here's part of the post and the links in case some of your group need
some info.


I just 'happened' to be gathering up some links that I was getting ready
to file away.  These would be useful to a Windows user who developed an
interest in OpenPGP such as gpg.  While they are just 'sitting there'
ready to be filed, I'll also stick them in here, including a link to the
beta OE gpg plugin.

http://www.glump.net/content/gpg_intro/html_onepage/gpg_intro.html A
Practical Introduction to GNU Privacy Guard in Windows

http://www.gnupg.org/gph/en/manual.html The GNU Privacy Handbook

http://www.gnupg.org/(en)/index.html GnuPG is a complete and free
replacement for PGP. Because it does not use the patented IDEA
algorithm, it can be used without any restrictions. GnuPG is a RFC2440
(OpenPGP) compliant application.

http://www.pgpi.org/doc/pgpintro/  How PGP works

http://www.keyserver.net/en/  This is a free web server to store PGP
public keys (1679713 keys stored).  Find a key for someone you wish to
send a secured message (signed or encrypted) to or add your own PGP
public key to make it available to other users on the Internet.  To
create your PGP public key, you may use any software compatible with the
OpenPGP format.

http://mandrakeuser.org/docs/secure/index.html   What Is GPG?   Why And
When To Use GPG   How GPG Works   GPG Pitfalls   Installation    Testing
And Configuration   Public Key Distribution   GPG And Mail Programs

http://0guita.com.ar/winpt/gpgoe.html  GPGOE is an Outlook Express
plug-in for GnuPG created by Timo Schulz. It allows the use of GnuPG
within outlook express for both signing, and encrypting/decrypting of
email communications.


-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Mon Jan 10 03:16:54 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Mon Jan 10 06:20:13 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Argh, linux headaches!
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>

All right, for some reason Debian Linux refuses to install the VIA Rhine 
ethernet driver that corresponds with my system during the installation 
process. It lists the driver, gives me the option to install it, but 
fails during the installation. This is exceptionally annoying, as it 
prohibits me from being able to access the internet while running Linux, 
which makes things fairly useless, if one were to ask me.

I seem to have successfully installed FreeBSD, though I have no freakin' 
clue what to do after all this. I'm way too cheap to actually go out and 
buy a book, but it would seem that with the modular, widely varying PC 
hardware components, nobody else has precisely the same computer as me, 
and thus likely wouldn't get precisely the same errors. Joy.

That, and the fact that all the differing *nix distros alter my MBR, 
thus prompting me at boot time to select what system to boot. While this 
is indeed quite useful, it's somewhat annoying when I (gasp!) want it to 
boot directly into Windows as fast as possible.

Since I can't really seem to get a *nix installation "off the ground" 
yet, I'm in the process of BitTorrenting a Knoppix Linux Live CD, where 
I can play around with it, see how it all works, etc. from a working ISO 
(burned, of course, to CD-R) that's already setup and working. That, 
combined with massive tinkering around, some classes in the next few 
semesters, etc. and I should have sufficient knowledge and comfort with 
the system to have a general idea what the heck's going on.

Maybe I'm just really spoiled about how the Mac OS always just seems to 
"work". Heck, the Windows XP installation was more painless than the 
Linux/FreeBSD installation. I find that really sad.

For the interim, I think I'll stick with playing with XP, learning all 
of its ins and outs, gaming a bit, etc. After I feel comfortable with 
learning a new OS (Windows), I'll play around with the Knoppix CD, then 
eventually work up the courage/(in)sanity/stupidity to turn my world up 
on end again and install Linux/BSD/*nix/whatever again and hopefully do 
something productive with it. Much unrecovery will ensue.

Now it's time to get to sleep. Today's been a very long day, fleeing a 
major winter storm at Lake Tahoe and dealing with the aftereffects of 
girl-foo. After a few weeks of being all right, a bunch of girl-foo has 
decided to resurface, creep up behind me, and clobber me over the head. 
:/

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From MikeE at ster.invalid  Mon Jan 10 03:32:32 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Mon Jan 10 06:35:13 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: PGP Question
References: <crt7h1$lli$1@news.spamcop.net> <crtdtm$pe9$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<crtn23$v29$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crtp1h$fd$1@news.spamcop.net>

Mike Easter wrote:
> http://0guita.com.ar/winpt/gpgoe.html  GPGOE is an Outlook Express
> plug-in for GnuPG created by Timo Schulz. It allows the use of GnuPG
> within outlook express for both signing, and encrypting/decrypting of
> email communications.

Apparently that link isn't currently up.  I don't know if that is a
permanent condition or not, but the 'general' situation with the OE
plugin currently is that it is a part of a free suite of tools, Windows
Privacy Tools (WinPT) - which is gpg, a gui front end, a win explorer
extension, the oe plugin, and a passphrase cacher.

http://help.helpem.com/docs/winpt/whatiswinpt.html  that site has links
to the sourceforge apps and docs

-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From tonysara at bigpond.net.au  Mon Jan 10 23:45:44 2005
From: tonysara at bigpond.net.au (Tony Sara)
Date: Mon Jan 10 07:50:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] query about port 8888
Message-ID: <crttet$38g$1@news.spamcop.net>

hi

I received about 180 ADSL router alerts today, from a wide range of IP
addresses, but all directed to port 8888.

some of the addressees resolved by spa,mcop were even anti spam and abuse
email addresses!

what si the specific purpose for this port, that might explain what is going
on?

Tony


From MikeE at ster.invalid  Mon Jan 10 04:52:26 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Mon Jan 10 07:55:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Ripping & encoding guide
Message-ID: <crttnb$3bo$1@news.spamcop.net>

Ars Technica has a new guide
http://arstechnica.com/guides/tweaks/encoding.ars

A guide to ripping and encoding music

Introduction to audio formats and bitrates
Why LAME?
Other MP3 encoders
Lossy alternatives to MP3
Lossless formats
Encoding options
The quick and dirty guide
Tagging
Conclusion

-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From devnull at spamcop.net  Mon Jan 10 11:03:29 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Mon Jan 10 11:15:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	A quation of interface between varioius cell phone and Apple Mac OS.
Message-ID: <cru9d0$be8$1@news.spamcop.net>

For a number of reason, not the least that my wife has a G4 laptop I need to
find someway to reliably interface wireless phones (specifically Verizon) to
the Mac OS.

Long story short VZN customer service has been yes/no on the process (yes if
it involves a sale, no if it involves demonstrating that the process works).
Only lately have I found that VZN has made a corporate decision to not
support the Mac OS in any form which includes giving any reference to
aftermarket vendors of software/hardware that would allow the Mac platform
to use their system.

My question: Does anyone here know of a source of a solution to my needs?
If so what has your experience been with the solution?  FIWI I am also at
the point of replacing an existing VZN phone.

Regards

FP


From TMHRVMFWREVN at spammotel.com  Mon Jan 10 23:30:46 2005
From: TMHRVMFWREVN at spammotel.com (Rob)
Date: Mon Jan 10 18:40:15 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ripping & encoding guide
References: <crttnb$3bo$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crv3o8$tc9$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Mike Easter" <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote in message
news:crttnb$3bo$1@news.spamcop.net...
> Ars Technica has a new guide
> http://arstechnica.com/guides/tweaks/encoding.ars
>
> A guide to ripping and encoding music
>
> Introduction to audio formats and bitrates
> Why LAME?
> Other MP3 encoders
> Lossy alternatives to MP3
> Lossless formats
> Encoding options
> The quick and dirty guide
> Tagging
> Conclusion
>
> -- 
> Mike Easter
> kibitzer, not SC admin
>

Some good info on there, but, I'm surprised there is nothing on shn
(shorten) used for lossless archiving many taper friendly groups that are
available for legit download.

Rob


From wb8tyw at qsl.network  Mon Jan 10 19:01:24 2005
From: wb8tyw at qsl.network (John E. Malmberg)
Date: Mon Jan 10 19:05:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: query about port 8888
In-Reply-To: <crunpi$lkk$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crttet$38g$1@news.spamcop.net> <crunpi$lkk$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crv50l$u8j$1@news.spamcop.net>

Mr K. Mean wrote:
> Tony Sara wrote:
> 
>> I received about 180 ADSL router alerts today, from a wide range of IP
>> addresses, but all directed to port 8888.
>>
>> some of the addressees resolved by spa,mcop were even anti spam and abuse
>> email addresses!
>>
> There is no service that widely uses that port:
> http://dshield.org/port_report.php?port=8888
> 
> Likely, some recent virus has set that up as the port it listens to for 
> remote connections so that the virus writer can use the trojaned system.

It is possible that some of the anti-spam organizations and or spammers 
are probing to see if the machine is vulnerable.

If you have a DHCP assignment, it may be that a past owner of that I.P. 
address was a zombie, or there is suspicion that there may be zombie 
machines on your subnet.

If you have a static I.P. address, then I would recommend verifying that 
everything is as you expect.  Some of the spam relays can be stealth and 
not respond to testing.

Your posting address mainly shows up on DHCP lists, which is normal, it 
also is in the STBL seemingly only because it is in Australia.

-John
wb8tyw@qsl.network
Personal Opinion Only
From MikeE at ster.invalid  Mon Jan 10 21:23:26 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Tue Jan 11 00:25:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ripping & encoding guide
References: <crttnb$3bo$1@news.spamcop.net> <crv3o8$tc9$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <crvnpd$9sp$1@news.spamcop.net>

Rob wrote:
> "Mike Easter"
>> Ars Technica has a new guide
>> http://arstechnica.com/guides/tweaks/encoding.ars

>> Lossless formats

> Some good info on there, but, I'm surprised there is nothing on shn
> (shorten) used for lossless archiving many taper friendly groups that
> are available for legit download.

In the lossless section, there's a link

"For those of you who want to use one of the more esoteric formats,
there is a nice selection of front-ends for various encoders found
here."  http://members.home.nl/w.speek/index.htm

That link goes to Speek's encoder frontends which has a comparison

"Check out my performance comparison of lossless audio compressors"
http://members.home.nl/w.speek/comparison.htm

which has a section "Shorten, Shorten" with its comparison to other
lossless and a link to Shorten's page at
http://www.softsound.com/Shorten.html

which shows shorten to be not very compressed but to be the fastest
encoding and decoding scheme of the lossless in the table.

But, you are correct that the authors don't discuss shorten 'right in'
their article.

-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From nobody at spamcop.net  Mon Jan 10 23:01:52 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Chris)
Date: Tue Jan 11 01:05:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] PHP Crypt and moving a database to new server
Message-ID: <crvq46$bir$1@news.spamcop.net>

I'm trying to move a database over to a new server and the only thing 
I'm having problems with is the encrypted password.

The script creators, decided to use the crypt function with a salt, 
but, implemented it incorrectly.  In a config file they have:

$password_salt="zz";

The encryption routine they use is:

$enc_password = crypt($_POST['password'],'$password_salt');

The problem is that they shouldn't have enclosed $password_salt as it 
is literally taking the variable and using it as the salt instead of 
zz.  All the stored passwords begin with $p instead of zz.

The problem I'm running into is that the new server is encrypting the 
password differently, but, only when using $password_salt as the salt.

For example:

$enc_password = crypt('hbzftma','$password_salt');

produces the output of $pzyeLK.Oz5E. on my computer here local AND the 
old server, but, the new server is outputting $pcW/C1WVgQRA using the 
same code.  The only difference I can find on my computer here at home 
and the new server is that the new server is running extended DES and 
Blowfish in addition to standard DES and MD5.

Thinking that it might be the salt lenghth, I tried $p on up as the 
salt but get the same output as the full $password_salt.

I tried substituting $password_salt with the actual salt of zz and 
then all three computers match the output.

The only thing I can think of is that the $ is triggering a different 
salt on the new server and thus the different output.

I would prefer to find a solution to this other than having to make 
the memberbase change their passwords, but, that's the only solution 
I've come up with so far...

Thanks
Chris
From no at no.spam  Mon Jan 10 22:20:08 2005
From: no at no.spam (Michael Wise)
Date: Tue Jan 11 01:25:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: A quation of interface between varioius cell phone and Apple
	Mac OS.
References: <cru9d0$be8$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <no-BE4E3B.22200310012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <cru9d0$be8$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote:

> For a number of reason, not the least that my wife has a G4 laptop I need to
> find someway to reliably interface wireless phones (specifically Verizon) to
> the Mac OS.


Not a problem. I've been interfacing VZW (and GTE Wireless before that) 
as well as ATTWS cell phones with my and my clients Macs for the last 
six or so years.


> Long story short VZN customer service has been yes/no on the process (yes if
> it involves a sale, no if it involves demonstrating that the process works).
> Only lately have I found that VZN has made a corporate decision to not
> support the Mac OS in any form which includes giving any reference to
> aftermarket vendors of software/hardware that would allow the Mac platform
> to use their system.

There are several to choose from.
> 
> My question: Does anyone here know of a source of a solution to my needs?
> If so what has your experience been with the solution?  FIWI I am also at
> the point of replacing an existing VZN phone.


For the last couple years, I've been using Smith Micro's QuickLink 
Mobile with my VZW phones with good results.

http://www.smithmicro.com/default.tpl?sku=QLMWAKEE&cart=11054234343495057
9&group=product_full


In addition, Susteen finally released a Mac version of their DataPilot 
product. I haven't used it yet, but will probably get it in the next 
week or so.

http://www.susteen.com/mac_features.htm



If all you need is contact synching, the shareware OnSync might do the 
trick.

http://homepage.mac.com/antonioferraioli/



--Mike
From rcarlton at spamcop.net  Tue Jan 11 00:08:12 2005
From: rcarlton at spamcop.net (Rick Carlton)
Date: Tue Jan 11 03:11:01 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
 Re: A quation of interface between varioius cell phone and Apple
 Mac OS.
In-Reply-To: <cru9d0$be8$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <cru9d0$be8$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs01hd$g2q$1@news.spamcop.net>

Frog Prince wrote:

> My question: Does anyone here know of a source of a solution to my needs?
> If so what has your experience been with the solution?  FIWI I am also at
> the point of replacing an existing VZN phone.

(Hope it's OK to jump in....I've been away for the past months...)

If you're up for replacing the handset, then the Motorola V710 is worth 
a look.

It's on Verizon's network, gets good reviews, but most importantly for 
Macophiles - it's also got Bluetooth.  No wires needed, built-in support 
in the Mac OS.

In a pinch, the same phone can use the Bluetooth virtual serial port and 
act as a modem for the Mac as well.

Keep in mind that macWorld is this week, and the Moto iTunes phone 
should be cropping up soon.

www.phonescoop.com is always good for a read, as is www.expansys-usa.com.
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Tue Jan 11 08:33:30 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Tue Jan 11 03:35:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 10 Jan 2005 Pete Stephenson entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net:

> That, and the fact that all the differing *nix distros alter my MBR, 
> thus prompting me at boot time to select what system to boot. While this 
> is indeed quite useful, it's somewhat annoying when I (gasp!) want it to 
> boot directly into Windows as fast as possible.
> 

I am determined not to do that and use multiple harddrives, and if 
necessary, removable drive bays.

-- 
| Ric
|
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Tue Jan 11 00:38:38 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Tue Jan 11 03:40:17 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>,
 Blammo <ric.gates@bigsleep.org> wrote:

> I am determined not to do that and use multiple harddrives, and if 
> necessary, removable drive bays.

Well, even if one were to use multiple hard disks, wouldn't one still 
need to have a MBR on the first sector of the first hard disk that would 
allow one to select which OS to load, or can that be selected in BIOS 
(i.e. Boot Order: Floppy, CDROM, Hard Disk #1, Hard Disk #2, etc.)?

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Tue Jan 11 08:45:09 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Tue Jan 11 03:50:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95DB7B8444F1blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 10 Jan 2005 Pete Stephenson entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net:

> I seem to have successfully installed FreeBSD, though I have no freakin' 
> clue what to do after all this.

Hmm, install some apps like X Window...
http://www.freebsd.org/applications.html

> I'm way too cheap to actually go out and buy a book,

Ok, http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/

> but it would seem that with the modular, widely varying PC 
> hardware components, nobody else has precisely the same computer as me, 
> and thus likely wouldn't get precisely the same errors. Joy.
> 

There are newsgroups for that
http://www.freebsd.org/support.html#newsgroups

Have you looked at http://www.opendarwin.org/ or 
http://darwine.opendarwin.org/
-- 
| Ric
|
From rcarlton at spamcop.net  Tue Jan 11 01:02:31 2005
From: rcarlton at spamcop.net (Rick Carlton)
Date: Tue Jan 11 04:05:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Dual CPU machines
In-Reply-To: <crqdvr$k0$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crpq7o$jhs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<dM8lL85UFdNb@eisner.encompasserve.org> <crqdvr$k0$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs04n8$i6l$1@news.spamcop.net>

Borgholio wrote:
> I meant hardware-wise.  :)

In the PC world - processor model, speed and voltage have to match (i 
think). After that it becomes a measure of optimization - the two CPUs 
from the same batch, etc.
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Tue Jan 11 09:11:01 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Tue Jan 11 04:15:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: PHP Crypt and moving a database to new server
References: <crvq46$bir$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95DBC1ADACCDblammo@216.154.195.61>

On 10 Jan 2005 Chris entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:crvq46$bir$1@news.spamcop.net:

> $enc_password = crypt($_POST['password'],'$password_salt');
> 
> The problem is that they shouldn't have enclosed $password_salt as it 
> is literally taking the variable and using it as the salt instead of 
> zz.  All the stored passwords begin with $p instead of zz.
> 

If PHP is anything like Perl, then you shouldn't be using single quotes...

$enc_password = crypt($_POST['password'],"$password_salt");

Writing it as '$password_salt' would mean that crypt() is literally taking 
the first two characters, which happen to be "$p".

However writing
$password_salt="zz";

as
$password_salt='zz';

wouldn't make any difference since it's a string with no special 
characters (like $).
-- 
| Ric
|
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Tue Jan 11 10:11:48 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Tue Jan 11 04:15:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <slrncu762k.lv.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:38:38 -0800, Pete Stephenson coughed into
spamcop.geeks and left this in
<pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net>:

> Well, even if one were to use multiple hard disks, wouldn't one still 
> need to have a MBR on the first sector of the first hard disk

Not necessarily. The bootsector of the active partition is a good place 
for such a bootloader too.

BTW, what made you choose Debian in particular? I too have via-rhine 
based NICs in all of the machines here (D-Link DFE-530TX) and no 
distributions based on the 2.4.x kernel and later have been a problem 
for me. I've tried Red Hat, Mandrake, Slackware (used for several years) 
and now I'm using FreeBSD.

-- 
Steve

Which is worse: ignorance or apathy?  Who knows?  Who cares?
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Tue Jan 11 09:27:27 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Tue Jan 11 04:30:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95DBEE3A5E91blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 11 Jan 2005 Pete Stephenson entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net:

> In article <Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>,
>  Blammo <ric.gates@bigsleep.org> wrote:
> 
>> I am determined not to do that and use multiple harddrives, and if 
>> necessary, removable drive bays.
> 
> Well, even if one were to use multiple hard disks, wouldn't one still 
> need to have a MBR on the first sector of the first hard disk that would 
> allow one to select which OS to load, or can that be selected in BIOS 
> (i.e. Boot Order: Floppy, CDROM, Hard Disk #1, Hard Disk #2, etc.)?
> 

There are several ways, but I just use the BIOS options to change the boot 
drive. You can use removable drives or a utility like Partition Magic, or a 
bootloader. For me the BIOS is the easiest most reliable way, but that 
depends on your motherboard.

-- 
| Ric
|
From nobody at spamcop.net  Tue Jan 11 02:37:58 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Chris)
Date: Tue Jan 11 04:40:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: PHP Crypt and moving a database to new server
In-Reply-To: <Xns95DBC1ADACCDblammo@216.154.195.61>
References: <crvq46$bir$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95DBC1ADACCDblammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <cs06pc$jke$1@news.spamcop.net>

Blammo wrote:
> If PHP is anything like Perl, then you shouldn't be using single quotes...
> 
> $enc_password = crypt($_POST['password'],"$password_salt");
> 
> Writing it as '$password_salt' would mean that crypt() is literally taking 
> the first two characters, which happen to be "$p".
> 
> However writing
> $password_salt="zz";
> 
> as
> $password_salt='zz';
> 
> wouldn't make any difference since it's a string with no special 
> characters (like $).

Yep, that's what is happening, if they would have left it unquoted or 
used double quotes, I wouldn't have this problem now.

My problem now is that on the new server, it doesn't encrypt using the 
'$password_salt' the same as it does on the old server so the 
passwords don't work/are different.  However if I correct it by 
doublequoting it or by leaving out any quotes all together the zz salt 
is used and the password will start with zz on all three computers.

I'm trying to get the routine to work on the new server, but, 
'$password_salt' has a different output so they don't match.

The output on the old server and on my computer here at home is the 
same with $pzyeLK.Oz5E. as the output.  Using the identical routine on 
the new server the output is $pcW/C1WVgQRA

If I only change the salt, say put zz there in place of 
$password_salt, all three computers have the output of zz1Sk0cyO39Vk

Thinking it has to do with the length of $password_salt, I tried $p up 
to the full length of $password_salt without any effect.

Chris
From TMHRVMFWREVN at spammotel.com  Tue Jan 11 12:07:58 2005
From: TMHRVMFWREVN at spammotel.com (Rob)
Date: Tue Jan 11 07:25:13 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ripping & encoding guide
References: <crttnb$3bo$1@news.spamcop.net> <crv3o8$tc9$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<crvnpd$9sp$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs0gam$ovk$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Mike Easter" <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote in message
news:crvnpd$9sp$1@news.spamcop.net...
>
> "Check out my performance comparison of lossless audio compressors"
> http://members.home.nl/w.speek/comparison.htm
>
> which has a section "Shorten, Shorten" with its comparison to other
> lossless and a link to Shorten's page at
> http://www.softsound.com/Shorten.html
>
> which shows shorten to be not very compressed but to be the fastest
> encoding and decoding scheme of the lossless in the table.
>
> But, you are correct that the authors don't discuss shorten 'right in'
> their article.
>
> -- 
> Mike Easter
> kibitzer, not SC admin
>

The only problem I've come across with Shorten is that very few players seem
to support playing it before it is uncompressed.  Foobar2000 is the only one
I've come across so far.

Rob


From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Tue Jan 11 06:20:59 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Tue Jan 11 09:25:06 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncu762k.lv.nobody@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-D012A1.06205911012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <slrncu762k.lv.nobody@127.0.0.1>,
 Steven Maesslein <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

> BTW, what made you choose Debian in particular? I too have via-rhine 
> based NICs in all of the machines here (D-Link DFE-530TX) and no 
> distributions based on the 2.4.x kernel and later have been a problem 
> for me. I've tried Red Hat, Mandrake, Slackware (used for several years) 
> and now I'm using FreeBSD.

I chose Debian based off of the advice of several Linux-knowledgeable 
friends I have. The excellent apt-get utility is also a major selling 
point.

Due to the VIA Rhine oddities, I've backed off trying to bash my way 
through the installation for Debian, and have successfully (?) installed 
FreeBSD. I'm not sure precisely what to /do/ with it now, though it does 
boot and give me a command line, but it doesn't seem that I can actually 
do anything from there as it's just a bare-bones system with no other 
applications/utilities that I can discern.

I've heard good things about Red Hat as well, and am downloading the 
ISOs for that as we speak. More tinkering around with this will be good.

I also remembered that I have several external hard disks lying around 
that I can pull the drives from and install the OS onto there, so I 
don't need to worry about Windows vs. Linux and other bootloader 
oddities. This would save me significant sums of money buying new and 
unnecessary hard disks.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From MikeE at ster.invalid  Tue Jan 11 06:32:38 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Tue Jan 11 09:35:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ripping & encoding guide
References: <crttnb$3bo$1@news.spamcop.net> <crv3o8$tc9$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<crvnpd$9sp$1@news.spamcop.net> <cs0gam$ovk$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs0nv5$t44$1@news.spamcop.net>

Rob wrote:
> The only problem I've come across with Shorten is that very few
> players seem to support playing it before it is uncompressed.
> Foobar2000 is the only one I've come across so far.

http://www.etree.org/shnutils/shorten/ <snippages>

Seek tables allow one to seek through a .shn file in real-time while
playing it in various audio players. Here is a list of plugins that
support seek tables:

xmms-shn (for XMMS)
ShnAmp (for WinAmp)
foo_shn (for foobar2000)
in_shn (for J River Media Jukebox/Center)
Shorten plugin (for MacAmp Lite X - now defunct)


<MEagain> Also, while crawling around, I also learned that shortened
also can do a lossy version.

http://www.softsound.com/Shorten.html Shorten has two basic modes of
operation: -- lossy: The compression may be specified either in terms of
an average number of bits per sample, or in terms of an acceptable
(perceptually weighted) signal to noise ratio. Good quality is obtained
at compression rates from 3:1 to 5:1 and thus it can be a good
alternative to ADPCM.


-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From skiwi at spamcop.net  Tue Jan 11 07:20:18 2005
From: skiwi at spamcop.net (sk1w1)
Date: Tue Jan 11 10:25:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Spamcop Seti team update [200K done!]
In-Reply-To: <crksk6$fqm$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crksk6$fqm$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs0qri$v1m$1@news.spamcop.net>

Borgholio wrote:
> Just about to break the 200,000 credit mark with 7 members and still 
> going strong!


[snip]

200K done! do I hear 500K!??     :-)
From borgholio at storymind.com  Tue Jan 11 09:42:52 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Tue Jan 11 12:45:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Dual CPU machines
In-Reply-To: <cs04n8$i6l$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crpq7o$jhs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<dM8lL85UFdNb@eisner.encompasserve.org> <crqdvr$k0$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cs04n8$i6l$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs136c$4or$1@news.spamcop.net>

Rick Carlton wrote:
> Borgholio wrote:
> 
>> I meant hardware-wise.  :)
> 
> 
> In the PC world - processor model, speed and voltage have to match (i 
> think). After that it becomes a measure of optimization - the two CPUs 
> from the same batch, etc.


So processor stepping doesn't matter?
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Tue Jan 11 18:41:19 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Tue Jan 11 13:45:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncu762k.lv.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<pete+usenet-D012A1.06205911012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95DB6CCCF8ED7blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 11 Jan 2005 Pete Stephenson entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:pete+usenet-D012A1.06205911012005@news.cesmail.net:

> I also remembered that I have several external hard disks lying around 
> that I can pull the drives from and install the OS onto there, so I 
> don't need to worry about Windows vs. Linux and other bootloader 
> oddities. This would save me significant sums of money buying new and 
> unnecessary hard disks.
> 

Leave a large drive in and slice it up for tmp, storage, programs, etc. The 
OS don't need a large drive, so you can format the large drive's partitions 
for whatever file systems you need, some like fat32 can be shared across 
OS's. Though you probably need to be careful what program you use to 
repartition the drive.

-- 
| Ric
|
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Tue Jan 11 19:13:59 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Tue Jan 11 14:15:27 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: PHP Crypt and moving a database to new server
References: <crvq46$bir$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95DBC1ADACCDblammo@216.154.195.61> <cs06pc$jke$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95DB7256EC48Eblammo@216.154.195.61>

On 11 Jan 2005 Chris entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:cs06pc$jke$1@news.spamcop.net:

> The output on the old server and on my computer here at home is the 
> same with $pzyeLK.Oz5E. as the output.  Using the identical routine on 
> the new server the output is $pcW/C1WVgQRA
> 
> If I only change the salt, say put zz there in place of 
> $password_salt, all three computers have the output of zz1Sk0cyO39Vk
> 
> Thinking it has to do with the length of $password_salt, I tried $p up 
> to the full length of $password_salt without any effect.
> 

OK, that's what I thought, but I couldn't understand why you just couldn't 
change the salt to '$p'.

Perl says salt should be alphanumeric, perhaps it is ignoring the '$', try 
variations of 'password_salt' and see if it comes close.

-- 
| Ric
|
From rcarlton at spamcop.net  Tue Jan 11 12:14:38 2005
From: rcarlton at spamcop.net (Rick Carlton)
Date: Tue Jan 11 15:15:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Dual CPU machines
In-Reply-To: <cs136c$4or$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crpq7o$jhs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<dM8lL85UFdNb@eisner.encompasserve.org> <crqdvr$k0$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cs04n8$i6l$1@news.spamcop.net> <cs136c$4or$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs1c3f$bei$1@news.spamcop.net>

Borgholio wrote:
> So processor stepping doesn't matter?

Sure it does, though more in the Intel world than say, AMD.

Here's a nifty little summary about Intel steppings: 
http://users.erols.com/chare/mixed.htm
From borgholio at storymind.com  Tue Jan 11 12:41:48 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Tue Jan 11 15:45:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Dual CPU machines
In-Reply-To: <cs1c3f$bei$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crpq7o$jhs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<dM8lL85UFdNb@eisner.encompasserve.org> <crqdvr$k0$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cs04n8$i6l$1@news.spamcop.net> <cs136c$4or$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cs1c3f$bei$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs1dls$cqj$1@news.spamcop.net>

Rick Carlton wrote:
> Borgholio wrote:
> 
>> So processor stepping doesn't matter?
> 
> 
> Sure it does, though more in the Intel world than say, AMD.
> 
> Here's a nifty little summary about Intel steppings: 
> http://users.erols.com/chare/mixed.htm


Thx.  That confirms what I thought about the CPUs this guy sent with the 
board...they're not matched.  Different core sizes (.25 micron vs .35 
micron) and different stepping.
From TMHRVMFWREVN at spammotel.com  Tue Jan 11 20:45:27 2005
From: TMHRVMFWREVN at spammotel.com (Rob)
Date: Tue Jan 11 16:40:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ripping & encoding guide
References: <crttnb$3bo$1@news.spamcop.net> <crv3o8$tc9$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<crvnpd$9sp$1@news.spamcop.net> <cs0gam$ovk$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cs0nv5$t44$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs1gtd$fa4$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Mike Easter" <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote in message
news:cs0nv5$t44$1@news.spamcop.net...
> Rob wrote:
>
> Seek tables allow one to seek through a .shn file in real-time while
> playing it in various audio players.
>
> http://www.softsound.com/Shorten.html Shorten has two basic modes of
> operation: -- lossy: The compression may be specified either in terms of
> an average number of bits per sample, or in terms of an acceptable
> (perceptually weighted) signal to noise ratio. Good quality is obtained
> at compression rates from 3:1 to 5:1 and thus it can be a good
> alternative to ADPCM.
>
>
> -- 
> Mike Easter
> kibitzer, not SC admin
>

When I downloaded Foobar2000 from etree I downloaded the special version
which installed the foo_shn plugin fortunately.  From what I can see most of
the music I've downloaded must be at 3:1 compression considering what they
uncompress to.  I have the MKW Audio Compression Tool for creating Lossless
shn from 16 bit stereo PCM Wave, but, there is no way to configure it for
different compression ratios so I'm presuming as it says lossless shn it is
somewhere around 3:1.  etree wouldn't advise it if it produced the lossy shn
files anyway.

Most downloads I've done of shn are of Grateful Dead shows, but, sometimes I
wonder why bother with shn for most of the older ones as the quality of the
original recordings are often so poor you probably wouldn't notice any
difference if they had been compressed to near maximum in mp3 format.  Then
purists love to hear that tape hiss etc. from the original recordings :-)

Rob


From borgholio at storymind.com  Tue Jan 11 15:16:22 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Tue Jan 11 18:20:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Spamcop Seti@home Team
Message-ID: <cs1mnk$iq4$1@news.spamcop.net>

Welcome Timelord, our newest member!
From devnull at spamcop.net  Tue Jan 11 20:31:38 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Tue Jan 11 20:35:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: A quation of interface between varioius cell phone and Apple
	Mac OS.
References: <cru9d0$be8$1@news.spamcop.net> <cs01hd$g2q$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs1una$oah$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Rick Carlton" <rcarlton@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:cs01hd$g2q$1@news.spamcop.net...
| Frog Prince wrote:
|
| > My question: Does anyone here know of a source of a solution to my
needs?
| > If so what has your experience been with the solution?  FIWI I am also
at
| > the point of replacing an existing VZN phone.
|
| (Hope it's OK to jump in....I've been away for the past months...)

Jump in please the water's fine.
|
| If you're up for replacing the handset, then the Motorola V710 is worth
| a look.

We have a Krycera 3035 that's gone tits up so new handset is on the list.
I've heard that some of the Motos have had problems of late but can't
confirm one way or the other.

|
| It's on Verizon's network, gets good reviews, but most importantly for
| Macophiles - it's also got Bluetooth.  No wires needed, built-in support
| in the Mac OS.
|
| In a pinch, the same phone can use the Bluetooth virtual serial port and
| act as a modem for the Mac as well.
|
| Keep in mind that macWorld is this week, and the Moto iTunes phone
| should be cropping up soon.
|
| www.phonescoop.com is always good for a read, as is www.expansys-usa.com.

Will look into these as well thanks.


From borgholio at storymind.com  Tue Jan 11 17:42:40 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Tue Jan 11 20:45:24 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] A Mac that even a PC user will drool for
Message-ID: <cs1v9u$omo$1@news.spamcop.net>

http://www.apple.com/macmini/

Pretty cool!
From eddie at eddie.web  Tue Jan 11 22:20:29 2005
From: eddie at eddie.web (eddie)
Date: Tue Jan 11 22:25:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: A Mac that even a PC user will drool for
References: <cs1v9u$omo$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.12.03.20.28.888000@eddie.web>

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:42:40 -0800, Borgholio scratched out the following:

> http://www.apple.com/macmini/
> 
> Pretty cool!

it uses a 2-button mouse w/scroll wheel!! Have they lost their minds over
at mac? :)
Sounds good to me.
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Wed Jan 12 03:26:45 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Tue Jan 11 22:30:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ripping & encoding guide
References: <crttnb$3bo$1@news.spamcop.net> <crv3o8$tc9$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<crvnpd$9sp$1@news.spamcop.net> <cs0gam$ovk$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cs0nv5$t44$1@news.spamcop.net> <cs1gtd$fa4$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95DBC5E2A2418blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 11 Jan 2005 Rob entered spamcop.geeks and left
news:cs1gtd$fa4$1@news.spamcop.net: 

> Most downloads I've done of shn are of Grateful Dead shows, but,
> sometimes I wonder why bother with shn for most of the older ones as
> the quality of the original recordings are often so poor you probably
> wouldn't notice any difference if they had been compressed to near
> maximum in mp3 format.  Then purists love to hear that tape hiss etc.
> from the original recordings :-) 
> 

It's not the hiss but the sound "within" the hiss. I really don't like 
digital music at all, unless it was digital to begin with. I do often 
listen to DMX, but I can really hear the difference the compression makes, 
in some songs there are tracks that are almost entirely gone. The music 
sounds kinda hollow and the ambience is gone. Better than FM anyway.
The other day I realized I was missing out on some good AC/DC songs, so I 
went looking for some I was missing. I found them and they were good 
quality, so I went and downloaded enough to fill up a CD. After some trial 
and error and one wasted disc I finally got a pretty good recording. But 
still it's rather hard to listen to because there are points in the music 
where the levels fade in and out. Almost unbearable at times to hear the 
base booming too loud, then abruptly fade into the background.
I used MP3Gain to level the tracks, Foobar2000 to convert them to wave, 
then EAC to burn the disk. But I guess there's no easy way to get the 
compression "effects" out. Easier just to buy the CDs, or, actually you can 
still get AC/DC on vinyl (most of the older unmastered albums are better on 
vinyl).
I'm working on burning all my albums to CD, if they turn out good, and I 
think they will because I can remove pops and clean up the gaps. My first 
try failed because I lost some audio somewhere. But my cassettes are fading 
away so if I can get a CD copy to sound as good as (or cleaner anyway) then 
DBX, than I won't need to touch my records again. Makes it rather hard when 
my stereo CD won't play CD R/W.
-- 
| Ric
|
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan 12 00:26:01 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan 12 03:30:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: A Mac that even a PC user will drool for
References: <cs1v9u$omo$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.12.03.20.28.888000@eddie.web>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-71C936.00260112012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <pan.2005.01.12.03.20.28.888000@eddie.web>,
 eddie <eddie@eddie.web> wrote:

> it uses a 2-button mouse w/scroll wheel!! Have they lost their minds over
> at mac? :)

Heh. Pretty much, it would seem.

Personally, I like my two-button trackball.

> Sounds good to me.

I'm glad to see Apple making competitively-priced hardware; it's been 
way too long. That said, I just built a PC for about a hundred bucks 
more than the Mac Mini's selling for, and it has substantially more room 
for expansion, faster CPU (2.2Ghz Athlon64), more memory, etc. Heck, 
even the off-the-shelf low-end PCs (certain Compaq models, e-machines, 
etc.) are about the same price but better equipped.

I'm never really a fan of bare-bones computers, which is precisely what 
the Mac Mini is, but I fully support Apple in their venture. If it can 
get more market share, go for it. :)

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan 12 02:33:07 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan 12 05:35:17 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] AMD Cool'n'Quiet opinions?
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-116B87.02330712012005@news.cesmail.net>

My Athlon64 and ABIT KV8-Pro motherboard both support AMD's Cool'n'Quiet 
technology. Evidently it slows the CPU down significantly when not in 
use, yet is able to bring it back up to full power within moments when 
needed.

At first glance, this appears to be useful -- it cuts power 
requirements, cooling load, etc.

However, there always seems to be some sort of catch.

Does anyone here have any experience, good or bad, with C'n'Q, 
particularly involving gaming machines? It looks like it'll deal with 
games all right by not suddenly cutting CPU power in the middle of a 
particularly heavy setting.

Any information regarding how well Cool'n'Quiet plays with ABIT's Fan EQ 
settings (i.e. does C'n'Q override the Fan EQ settings?) would also be 
helpful.

For the time being, I've got C'n'Q disabled, Fan EQ disabled (causing 
the CPU and case fans to run flat-out all the time), and so forth. This 
is likely to cause some extra power consumption (I'm curious how much 
power C'n'Q would save...), as well as having the system a little noiser 
(not a real problem, as my RaQ3 has two tiny, yet incredibly loud case 
fans -- I actually find it difficult to sleep without the white noise of 
the fans going). Not a big deal really.

I'm just curious from a geeky standpoint, as well as trying to play 
around with it.

Cheers!

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From nobody at spamcop.net  Wed Jan 12 10:39:54 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (TimeLord)
Date: Wed Jan 12 05:45:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Spamcop Seti@home Team
References: <cs1mnk$iq4$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs2v0f$bta$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Borgholio" <borgholio@storymind.com> wrote in message 
news:cs1mnk$iq4$1@news.spamcop.net...
> Welcome Timelord, our newest member!

Thanks :-) - It's a pleasure to add my bit - sorry I couldn't bring my 
previous units, the account on SETI2 is under a now non-existant email addy 
:-(

Kev 


From user at domain.invalid  Wed Jan 12 06:40:36 2005
From: user at domain.invalid (User)
Date: Wed Jan 12 07:45:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: AMD Cool'n'Quiet opinions?
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-116B87.02330712012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <pete+usenet-116B87.02330712012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <cs35ru$fir$1@news.spamcop.net>

On 12.01.2005 04:33, Pete Stephenson wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> My Athlon64 and ABIT KV8-Pro motherboard both support AMD's Cool'n'Quiet 
> technology. Evidently it slows the CPU down significantly when not in 
> use, yet is able to bring it back up to full power within moments when 
> needed.
> 
> At first glance, this appears to be useful -- it cuts power 
> requirements, cooling load, etc.
> 
> However, there always seems to be some sort of catch.
> 
> Does anyone here have any experience, good or bad, with C'n'Q, 
> particularly involving gaming machines? It looks like it'll deal with 
> games all right by not suddenly cutting CPU power in the middle of a 
> particularly heavy setting.
> 
> Any information regarding how well Cool'n'Quiet plays with ABIT's Fan EQ 
> settings (i.e. does C'n'Q override the Fan EQ settings?) would also be 
> helpful.
> 
> For the time being, I've got C'n'Q disabled, Fan EQ disabled (causing 
> the CPU and case fans to run flat-out all the time), and so forth. This 
> is likely to cause some extra power consumption (I'm curious how much 
> power C'n'Q would save...), as well as having the system a little noiser 
> (not a real problem, as my RaQ3 has two tiny, yet incredibly loud case 
> fans -- I actually find it difficult to sleep without the white noise of 
> the fans going). Not a big deal really.
> 
> I'm just curious from a geeky standpoint, as well as trying to play 
> around with it.
> 
> Cheers!
> 

No experience with that particular product but lots of experience with
similar ones. If C'nQ' is programmable to configure the On/Off feature
after xx mins/secs of idle time then it may be worth the effort,
otherwise forget it. "Sleep" functionality CAN be a huge nuisance
especially Wake-On-Lan.
From nobody at spamcop.net  Wed Jan 12 14:58:34 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Ellen)
Date: Wed Jan 12 15:00:23 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] SpamCop outage
Message-ID: <cs3vfv$rc$1@news.spamcop.net>

We anticipate a brief outage of 15-30 minutes sometime in the next couple of
hours as we move some hardware around. Please be patient as the outage
should be brief. Thanks!

Ellen
SpamCop

If someone will propagate this to the appropriate forum groups I would
appreciate it.
Follow-ups to spamcop.



From nobody at spamcop.net  Wed Jan 12 14:21:30 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Chris)
Date: Wed Jan 12 16:25:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: PHP Crypt and moving a database to new server
In-Reply-To: <Xns95DB7256EC48Eblammo@216.154.195.61>
References: <crvq46$bir$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95DBC1ADACCDblammo@216.154.195.61> <cs06pc$jke$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95DB7256EC48Eblammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <cs44ce$4cc$1@news.spamcop.net>

Blammo wrote:
> On 11 Jan 2005 Chris entered spamcop.geeks and left 
> news:cs06pc$jke$1@news.spamcop.net:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, that's what I thought, but I couldn't understand why you just couldn't 
> change the salt to '$p'.
> 
> Perl says salt should be alphanumeric, perhaps it is ignoring the '$', try 
> variations of 'password_salt' and see if it comes close.
> 

Thought of that.  But the password generated contains the first 2 
letters of the salt and on all servers it is $p.  It's just that it's 
different on the one server if it starts out with $ it seems as the 
rest all seem to match if the salt is alphanumeric.

Oh, well, thanks....

Chris
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan 12 13:53:04 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan 12 16:55:08 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: AMD Cool'n'Quiet opinions?
References: <pete+usenet-116B87.02330712012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cs35ru$fir$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-1E2F33.13530412012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <cs35ru$fir$1@news.spamcop.net>, User <user@domain.invalid> 
wrote:

> No experience with that particular product but lots of experience with
> similar ones. If C'nQ' is programmable to configure the On/Off feature
> after xx mins/secs of idle time then it may be worth the effort,
> otherwise forget it. "Sleep" functionality CAN be a huge nuisance
> especially Wake-On-Lan.

It doesn't seem to bother with sleeping/shutting down the system, it 
just throttles back the CPU itself to a slower clock speed.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Thu Jan 13 00:03:06 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Wed Jan 12 18:05:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncu762k.lv.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<pete+usenet-D012A1.06205911012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <slrncubb5a.1nbe.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:20:59 -0800, Pete Stephenson coughed into
spamcop.geeks and left this in
<pete+usenet-D012A1.06205911012005@news.cesmail.net>:

> I'm not sure precisely what to /do/ with it now, though it does boot
> and give me a command line, but it doesn't seem that I can actually do
> anything from there as it's just a bare-bones system with no other
> applications/utilities that I can discern.

The FreeBSD documentation is excellent. I suggest you take a look at the 
FreeBSD handbook:

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html

I was recompiling a custom FreeBSD kernel within days of reading through 
this stuff, and building a newly cvsup'ed system not long thereafter.

> I've heard good things about Red Hat as well, and am downloading the 
> ISOs for that as we speak. More tinkering around with this will be good.

If you're downloading Red Hat, you're downloading outdated stuff. Red 
Hat's community supported (free) edition became Fedora Core in August 
2003 or thereabouts. FC2 is reputed to be not bad, but whatever you 
choose out of RH or FC, you're going to end up with a desktop solution 
rather than a server solution. Of course, this might be what you're 
looking for...

-- 
Steve

Politics is the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next
week, next month and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to
explain why it didn't happen.
                  -- Winston Churchill
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Thu Jan 13 00:07:56 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Wed Jan 12 18:10:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: A Mac that even a PC user will drool for
References: <cs1v9u$omo$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.12.03.20.28.888000@eddie.web>
	<pete+usenet-71C936.00260112012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <slrncubbec.1nbe.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:26:01 -0800, Pete Stephenson coughed into
spamcop.geeks and left this in
<pete+usenet-71C936.00260112012005@news.cesmail.net>:

> Personally, I like my two-button trackball.

Better than a 2-ball trackbutton :)

-- 
Steve

Do molecular biologists wear designer genes?
From rcarlton at spamcop.net  Wed Jan 12 15:32:32 2005
From: rcarlton at spamcop.net (Rick Carlton)
Date: Wed Jan 12 18:35:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: A Mac that even a PC user will drool for
In-Reply-To: <pan.2005.01.12.03.20.28.888000@eddie.web>
References: <cs1v9u$omo$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.12.03.20.28.888000@eddie.web>
Message-ID: <cs4c2g$9s0$1@news.spamcop.net>

eddie wrote:
> it uses a 2-button mouse w/scroll wheel!! Have they lost their minds over
> at mac? :)
> Sounds good to me.

Macs recognize most USB mice and their extra buttons right off.

Right-clicking is the same as command-clicking on a Mac keyboard.

No driver needed, just like on Windows, though you can always add one 
for enhanced features (similar to Intellipoint on Windows)
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan 12 15:34:27 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan 12 18:35:08 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncu762k.lv.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<pete+usenet-D012A1.06205911012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncubb5a.1nbe.nobody@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-B57544.15342712012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <slrncubb5a.1nbe.nobody@127.0.0.1>,
 Steven Maesslein <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

> The FreeBSD documentation is excellent. I suggest you take a look at the 
> FreeBSD handbook:

[snip]

I shall definitely look at that.

> > I've heard good things about Red Hat as well, and am downloading the 
> > ISOs for that as we speak. More tinkering around with this will be good.
> 
> If you're downloading Red Hat, you're downloading outdated stuff. Red 
> Hat's community supported (free) edition became Fedora Core in August 
> 2003 or thereabouts. FC2 is reputed to be not bad, but whatever you 
> choose out of RH or FC, you're going to end up with a desktop solution 
> rather than a server solution. Of course, this might be what you're 
> looking for...

I meant that I was downloading /from/ Red Hat, specifically I was 
downloaded FC3. I don't mind text-based installers like Debian has, but 
the FC3 GUI installer was quite nice.

I managed to actually get it to install, load x, but then I'm stuck in 
some sort of psuedo-desktop environment that I have no idea what to do 
with. It's kind of an off-color greenish-blue.

After some swearing and hair-pulling, I've readjusted the partition map 
on my primary hard disk so it'll be all-Windows and put in a second 
Serial ATA disk and formatted that for Debian. A $5 Linksys NIC card 
seems to be compatible (via the Tulip module) with the Debian 
net-installer, so it's actually installing. We'll see how that goes.

Having a hard disk for each system (Windows and Linux) would be 
exceptionally helpful and probably more fault-tolerant, as it'd ensure 
that each system doesn't accidentally write over the other system's 
files. It also gives me more (160Gb for Windows, 250Gb for Linux) disk 
space for both systems at the cost of slightly increasing the required 
cooling load for my system. Oh well. :)

Now that the net-installer seems to be working, I should probably go 
eat. Yeah, that'd be a good idea...

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From eddie at eddie.web  Wed Jan 12 19:23:26 2005
From: eddie at eddie.web (eddie)
Date: Wed Jan 12 19:25:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: A Mac that even a PC user will drool for
References: <cs1v9u$omo$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.12.03.20.28.888000@eddie.web> <cs4c2g$9s0$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.13.00.23.25.817000@eddie.web>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:32:32 -0800, Rick Carlton scratched out the
following:

> eddie wrote:
>> it uses a 2-button mouse w/scroll wheel!! Have they lost their minds
>> over at mac? :)
>> Sounds good to me.
> 
> Macs recognize most USB mice and their extra buttons right off.
> 
> Right-clicking is the same as command-clicking on a Mac keyboard.
> 
> No driver needed, just like on Windows, though you can always add one for
> enhanced features (similar to Intellipoint on Windows)

My G5/OSX has a multibutton mouse and scroll wheel, but I thought earlier
software versions did not recognize anything but a single button.
Anyway, this is the first time I have seen Mac publicly admit
mice have more than one button and have a scroll wheel and that their
system works with it.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan 12 18:27:01 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan 12 21:30:18 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncu762k.lv.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<pete+usenet-D012A1.06205911012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncubb5a.1nbe.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<pete+usenet-B57544.15342712012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-E06076.18270112012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <pete+usenet-B57544.15342712012005@news.cesmail.net>,
 Pete Stephenson <pete+usenet@heypete.com> wrote:

> Now that the net-installer seems to be working, I should probably go 
> eat. Yeah, that'd be a good idea...

Update: I haven't yet gotten food (this new Linux Diet isn't so hot...), 
but I've successfully gotten Debian to install and run.

After some hair-pulling[1], much Googling, some dumb luck, and the bare 
beginnings of Linuxy knowledge and understanding[2], I've managed to get 
x-windows working with my nvidia graphics card, installed Firefox, 
installed Webmin, and have been tinkering around a bit.

I must say, the Debian "apt-get" utility is incredibly helpful. Once the 
GUI was all loaded, things were working out quite nicely. Now I just 
need to "play" and get more familiar with the environment and the 
system. Oh, and I need to grow a beard, as it would seem that most of 
the male unixy geeks that are publicly known have beards. Clearly 
there's a connection. :)

Now all I need to do is figure out precisely how to be able to access a 
system remotely (Webmin looks helpful, but having some sort of "virtual 
monitor" where I could interface with a remote system as if I were 
connected directly to it would be perfect), and I'll be able to attempt 
to install Debian on the Cobalt RaQ I have here, which would bring it 
significantly up to date, make it easier to use, etc.

For now, I'm going out to get Italian food with my folks. I need a 
break. :)

[1] Does EVERYTHING involving Linux involve wailing and gnashing of 
teeth?
[2] I think the only person who truly understands Linux is Linus 
himself, and even he's probably already had a few nervous breakdowns.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Thu Jan 13 03:33:11 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Wed Jan 12 22:35:23 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: PHP Crypt and moving a database to new server
References: <crvq46$bir$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95DBC1ADACCDblammo@216.154.195.61> <cs06pc$jke$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95DB7256EC48Eblammo@216.154.195.61> <cs44ce$4cc$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95DCC6FA1116Cblammo@216.154.195.61>

On 12 Jan 2005 Chris entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:cs44ce$4cc$1@news.spamcop.net:

> Thought of that.  But the password generated contains the first 2 
> letters of the salt and on all servers it is $p.  It's just that it's 
> different on the one server if it starts out with $ it seems as the 
> rest all seem to match if the salt is alphanumeric.
> 
> 

Yep, did you try 
[space]p
it's only using the first two characters, and it's treating non-
alphanumerics as some other character. I tried a test of my own and any 
non-alpha numeric gives the same result.
If you can figure out which character gives the same result, you can 
replace '$' in the password file with that character.
I think it's because of different Perl libraries, maybe I can use a 
different version of perl and get your results.

-- 
| Ric
|
From user at domain.invalid  Wed Jan 12 23:11:56 2005
From: user at domain.invalid (User)
Date: Thu Jan 13 00:15:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: AMD Cool'n'Quiet opinions?
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-1E2F33.13530412012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <pete+usenet-116B87.02330712012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cs35ru$fir$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-1E2F33.13530412012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <cs4vst$lu4$1@news.spamcop.net>

On 12.01.2005 15:53, Pete Stephenson wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> In article <cs35ru$fir$1@news.spamcop.net>, User <user@domain.invalid> 
> wrote:
> 
>> No experience with that particular product but lots of experience with
>> similar ones. If C'nQ' is programmable to configure the On/Off feature
>> after xx mins/secs of idle time then it may be worth the effort,
>> otherwise forget it. "Sleep" functionality CAN be a huge nuisance
>> especially Wake-On-Lan.
> 
> It doesn't seem to bother with sleeping/shutting down the system, it 
> just throttles back the CPU itself to a slower clock speed.
> 

CPU Prozac, close enough .. ;-)
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Thu Jan 13 05:26:46 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Thu Jan 13 00:30:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: PHP Crypt and moving a database to new server
References: <crvq46$bir$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95DBC1ADACCDblammo@216.154.195.61> <cs06pc$jke$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95DB7256EC48Eblammo@216.154.195.61> <cs44ce$4cc$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95DCC6FA1116Cblammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <Xns95DCDA3B59C06blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 12 Jan 2005 Blammo entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:Xns95DCC6FA1116Cblammo@216.154.195.61:


> If you can figure out which character gives the same result, you can
> replace '$' in the password file with that character.


I got it, try a salt value of
$password_salt="qp";

Then in the password file replace $ with q

$p + hbzftma = $pcW/C1WVgQRA
qp + hbzftma = qpzyeLK.Oz5E.

I don't know if that will work on every password, but it worked on the one 
you used in your first post.
-- 
| Ric
|
From nobody at spamcop.net  Thu Jan 13 01:31:08 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Chris)
Date: Thu Jan 13 03:35:15 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: PHP Crypt and moving a database to new server
In-Reply-To: <Xns95DCDA3B59C06blammo@216.154.195.61>
References: <crvq46$bir$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95DBC1ADACCDblammo@216.154.195.61> <cs06pc$jke$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95DB7256EC48Eblammo@216.154.195.61> <cs44ce$4cc$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95DCC6FA1116Cblammo@216.154.195.61>
	<Xns95DCDA3B59C06blammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <cs5bk1$sh7$1@news.spamcop.net>

Blammo wrote:
> On 12 Jan 2005 Blammo entered spamcop.geeks and left 
> news:Xns95DCC6FA1116Cblammo@216.154.195.61:
> 
> 
> 
>>If you can figure out which character gives the same result, you can
>>replace '$' in the password file with that character.
> 
> 
> 
> I got it, try a salt value of
> $password_salt="qp";
> 
> Then in the password file replace $ with q
> 
> $p + hbzftma = $pcW/C1WVgQRA
> qp + hbzftma = qpzyeLK.Oz5E.
> 
> I don't know if that will work on every password, but it worked on the one 
> you used in your first post.
Worked like a charm, this is going to save me a lot of extra work.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chris
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Thu Jan 13 12:40:20 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Thu Jan 13 06:45:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncu762k.lv.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<pete+usenet-D012A1.06205911012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncubb5a.1nbe.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<pete+usenet-B57544.15342712012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pete+usenet-E06076.18270112012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <slrncucnh4.ss.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:27:01 -0800, Pete Stephenson coughed into
spamcop.geeks and left this in
<pete+usenet-E06076.18270112012005@news.cesmail.net>:

> After some hair-pulling[1],
> [1] Does EVERYTHING involving Linux involve wailing and gnashing of 
> teeth?

It's all down to the documentation. That's why I always encourage 
first-time linux users to part with the cash necessary to go out and buy 
a boxed set with printed documentation.

My own first contact with Linux wasn't particularly productive either. I 
managed to get Red Hat 5.2 installed and start up, get a login prompt, 
log in as root and then, well, err... That was about it.

A couple of years later I went out and bought a Red Hat 6.0 boxed set, 
only living in France the documentation was (poorly) translated into 
French - it's against the law to sell software in France if the 
documentation and UI aren't translated into French, or at least it was 
back then. The trouble is, the documentation was translated by someone 
who was doubtless a good translator but who didn't know the first thing 
about computers. The kind of mistranslation you'd get was stuff like "in 
order to do this, type the following text into the chain of command". 
That didn't help that much.

The year after I was strolling round the computer section of a bookshop 
in the UK and I came across "The Red Hat 7.1 Bible" with CDs or RH 7.1. 
The documentation was in English, the distribution was up to date for 
the time, so I bought it.

It was the clear, original documentation (rather than a piss-poor 
translation) that enabled me to ditch Windows permanently. That was 4 
years ago.


> much Googling, some dumb luck, and the bare beginnings of Linuxy
> knowledge and understanding[2],
> [2] I think the only person who truly understands Linux is Linus 
> himself, and even he's probably already had a few nervous breakdowns.

Linux itself is pretty straightforward. The copmplex part is 
understanding the rest of the GNU O/S, how things are configured, even 
what they're for sometimes.

> I've managed to get x-windows working with my nvidia graphics card,
> installed Firefox, installed Webmin, and have been tinkering around a
> bit.

Uhh... That'd be "X-Window" (no Windows here TYVM :))

BTW, Webmin is a recipe for disaster, as is any automated configuration 
process. It's okay while you're learning, but lose the habit ASAP.

> I must say, the Debian "apt-get" utility is incredibly helpful.

It *is* the huge selling point of Debian.

> Once the GUI was all loaded, things were working out quite nicely. Now
> I just need to "play" and get more familiar with the environment and
> the system. Oh, and I need to grow a beard, as it would seem that most
> of the male unixy geeks that are publicly known have beards. Clearly
> there's a connection. :)

And the pony tail! Don't forget the pony tail! (Before you ask, yes, I 
do have both...)

> Now all I need to do is figure out precisely how to be able to access a 
> system remotely (Webmin looks helpful, but having some sort of "virtual 
> monitor" where I could interface with a remote system as if I were 
> connected directly to it would be perfect),

OpenSSH.

You log into the remote system over an encrypted connection and you have 
a console on that remote system. Much like telnet, only nothing is 
transmitted in the clear.

OpenSSH will also tunnel X sessions over SSL if you can't do without the 
GUI but I've never done that myself.

-- 
Steve

Tomorrow is cancelled due to lack of interest.
From borgholio at storymind.com  Thu Jan 13 10:18:44 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Thu Jan 13 13:20:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Windows NT Sever pointers needed
Message-ID: <cs6e11$g9k$1@news.spamcop.net>

Anybody here familiar with NT Server 4.0?
From dfm2a3l0t2 at spymac.com  Thu Jan 13 18:45:17 2005
From: dfm2a3l0t2 at spymac.com (D.F. Manno)
Date: Thu Jan 13 18:45:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: A Mac that even a PC user will drool for
References: <cs1v9u$omo$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.12.03.20.28.888000@eddie.web> <cs4c2g$9s0$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.13.00.23.25.817000@eddie.web>
Message-ID: <dfm2a3l0t2-9BA4F0.18451713012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <pan.2005.01.13.00.23.25.817000@eddie.web>,
 eddie <eddie@eddie.web> wrote:

> My G5/OSX has a multibutton mouse and scroll wheel, but I thought earlier
> software versions did not recognize anything but a single button.

Not true. I used a three-button cordless mouse on my 7600 running OS 9.

Until I dropped the mouse.
-- 
D.F. Manno
dfm2a3l0t2@spymac.com
"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream
will never die."
From eddie at eddie.web  Thu Jan 13 20:01:30 2005
From: eddie at eddie.web (eddie)
Date: Thu Jan 13 20:05:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: A Mac that even a PC user will drool for
References: <cs1v9u$omo$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.12.03.20.28.888000@eddie.web> <cs4c2g$9s0$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.13.00.23.25.817000@eddie.web>
	<dfm2a3l0t2-9BA4F0.18451713012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.14.01.01.29.344000@eddie.web>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:45:17 -0500, D.F. Manno scratched out the
following:

snip
> 
> Not true. I used a three-button cordless mouse on my 7600 running OS 9.
> 
> Until I dropped the mouse.

I didn't know that. Mac really hides that from the public. Did you need
special software? My G5 supports my Logitech Bluetooth mouse with no
support from either Mac or Logitech - at least last time I checked. The
support is directly from the BSD OS.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Thu Jan 13 18:21:47 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Thu Jan 13 21:26:21 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncu762k.lv.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<pete+usenet-D012A1.06205911012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncubb5a.1nbe.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<pete+usenet-B57544.15342712012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pete+usenet-E06076.18270112012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncucnh4.ss.nobody@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-5D9D55.18214713012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <slrncucnh4.ss.nobody@127.0.0.1>,
 Steven Maesslein <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:27:01 -0800, Pete Stephenson coughed into
> spamcop.geeks and left this in
> <pete+usenet-E06076.18270112012005@news.cesmail.net>:
> 
> > After some hair-pulling[1],
> > [1] Does EVERYTHING involving Linux involve wailing and gnashing of 
> > teeth?
> 
> It's all down to the documentation. That's why I always encourage 
> first-time linux users to part with the cash necessary to go out and buy 
> a boxed set with printed documentation.

Exactly.

A good substitute for documentation is Google. The odds are that someone 
else has had the same error as you are quite high. In fact, I was just 
having trouble with the nvidia driver with Debian (specifically that the 
kernel wasn't loading the module at startup, though "modprobe nvidia", 
"startx" caused it to work just fine). A bit of Googling, a few minor 
modifications to a config file, and voila!

> My own first contact with Linux wasn't particularly productive either. I 
> managed to get Red Hat 5.2 installed and start up, get a login prompt, 
> log in as root and then, well, err... That was about it.

Indeed. That's about where I stand with FreeBSD on another partition. 
The Debian install seems to have gone off fairly well, which is nice. 
Only /some/ wailing and gnashing of teeth.

> It was the clear, original documentation (rather than a piss-poor 
> translation) that enabled me to ditch Windows permanently. That was 4 
> years ago.

Hear, hear!

I'm a Mac guy, but I'm trying to run as many OSs as possible -- OSX on 
the G5, Windows XP Pro, Debian, and FreeBSD on the PC (more if my sanity 
permits -- I'm partitioning the 250Gb disk into 25Gb partitions for each 
OS, so I can, in theory, hold up to 10 different OSs).

> Linux itself is pretty straightforward. The copmplex part is 
> understanding the rest of the GNU O/S, how things are configured, even 
> what they're for sometimes.

Hmm. True. All the configuration stuff is just horribly arcane.

> Uhh... That'd be "X-Window" (no Windows here TYVM :))

Pardon me. :)

> BTW, Webmin is a recipe for disaster, as is any automated configuration 
> process. It's okay while you're learning, but lose the habit ASAP.

Well, I'd really like some sort of automated configuration process 
that's reminiscent of the Cobalt GUI. Having everything in one 
centralized place that's easy to administer (particularly from a remote 
connection) is very important for me.

Why is webmin (or indeed any other automated configuration deal) a 
recipe for disaster?

> > I must say, the Debian "apt-get" utility is incredibly helpful.
> 
> It *is* the huge selling point of Debian.

Quite so, and I can see why.

> > Once the GUI was all loaded, things were working out quite nicely. Now
> > I just need to "play" and get more familiar with the environment and
> > the system. Oh, and I need to grow a beard, as it would seem that most
> > of the male unixy geeks that are publicly known have beards. Clearly
> > there's a connection. :)
> 
> And the pony tail! Don't forget the pony tail! (Before you ask, yes, I 
> do have both...)

Heh.

> > Now all I need to do is figure out precisely how to be able to access a 
> > system remotely (Webmin looks helpful, but having some sort of "virtual 
> > monitor" where I could interface with a remote system as if I were 
> > connected directly to it would be perfect),
> 
> OpenSSH.
> 
> You log into the remote system over an encrypted connection and you have 
> a console on that remote system. Much like telnet, only nothing is 
> transmitted in the clear.

Right, I'm familiar with SSH and have been using it for some time. I was 
thinking along the lines of "vnc" or something like that.

> OpenSSH will also tunnel X sessions over SSL if you can't do without the 
> GUI but I've never done that myself.

Interesting. That'd be excellent. VNC looks promising, but X-over-SSH 
would also be nice.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Fri Jan 14 12:46:23 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Fri Jan 14 06:50:11 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Argh, linux headaches!
References: <pete+usenet-494CFE.03165410012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95DB5BEA61E6blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-63163C.00383711012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncu762k.lv.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<pete+usenet-D012A1.06205911012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncubb5a.1nbe.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<pete+usenet-B57544.15342712012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pete+usenet-E06076.18270112012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<slrncucnh4.ss.nobody@127.0.0.1>
	<pete+usenet-5D9D55.18214713012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <slrncufc8f.jjh.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:21:47 -0800, Pete Stephenson coughed into
spamcop.geeks and left this in
<pete+usenet-5D9D55.18214713012005@news.cesmail.net>:

> A good substitute for documentation is Google. The odds are that
> someone else has had the same error as you are quite high.

The only danger with web-based information is that not all of it is 
accurate. Sometimes it's downright misleading. Imagine someone doing a 
search on webmin, this posting being thrown up in the results, and the 
pair of us spouting complete balls about it...

>> My own first contact with Linux wasn't particularly productive either. I 
>> managed to get Red Hat 5.2 installed and start up, get a login prompt, 
>> log in as root and then, well, err... That was about it.
>
> Indeed. That's about where I stand with FreeBSD on another partition. 

FreeBSD is very close to Slackware Linux. Or maybe that should be the 
other way round since Slackware was designed to BSD-ish right from the 
start. I used Slackware for several years and switched this workstation 
over to FreeBSD about 3 months ago. I've only booted back into Slack 
once since then in order to produce and distribute an updated kernel 
patch when the 2.6.10 kernel was released.

> I'm a Mac guy, but I'm trying to run as many OSs as possible -- OSX on 
> the G5, Windows XP Pro, Debian, and FreeBSD on the PC (more if my sanity 
> permits -- I'm partitioning the 250Gb disk into 25Gb partitions for each 
> OS, so I can, in theory, hold up to 10 different OSs).

Except that some O/Ses refuse to start from a logical volume in an 
extended partition. FreeBSD is an example of this - it requires a slice 
from the primary partition table. Since there are only 4 available, and 
only one of them can be an extended partition, that somewhat limits your 
possibilities.

>> Linux itself is pretty straightforward. The copmplex part is 
>> understanding the rest of the GNU O/S, how things are configured, even 
>> what they're for sometimes.
>
> Hmm. True. All the configuration stuff is just horribly arcane.

And yet robust. Maybe it's just me but I *prefer* to have individual 
config files for each application I use (the one I'm developing right 
now even has 3 config files) because the scope for damage is far shorter 
than with Windows' registry for example.

Hose your /etc/resolv.conf for example and the system won't know how to 
do DNS any more. Big deal. Create a new /etc/resolv.conf with a couple 
of lines of text in it and your set. I'll let you imagine the 
consequences of hosing c:\user.dat...

> Why is webmin (or indeed any other automated configuration deal) a 
> recipe for disaster?

Any "black box" is potentially a recipe for disaster.

Webmin is going to write out the configuration files in a manner that it 
can parse next time it's invoked so that it can show you the current 
configuration. What happens if you need a feature that isn't covered by 
webmin? You're going to have to edit the config file manually, meaning 
that:

1) Webmin will not be able to grok it later on

2) Webmin will overwrite it with its own style of config and you'll lose 
   your custom settings

Also, in order to restart the various daemons and indeed to have write 
access to the config files in the first place, it has to run setuid 
root, and anything running setuid root exposed to the outside just gives 
me the creeps!

> Right, I'm familiar with SSH and have been using it for some time. I was 
> thinking along the lines of "vnc" or something like that.

There are also vnc solutions for Linux but they're more geared to doing 
the opposite of what you want: i.e. controlling a Windows machine from a 
Linux machine.

-- 
Steve

Why is it that when you transport something by car it's
called shipment, but when you transport it by ship it's
called cargo?
From nobody at spamcop.net  Fri Jan 14 14:55:59 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Maxx Excaliber)
Date: Fri Jan 14 15:00:15 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Windows NT Sever pointers needed
References: <cs6e11$g9k$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.14.19.55.59.761626@homelinux.org>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:18:44 -0800, Borgholio wrote:

> Anybody here familiar with NT Server 4.0?
>
I have a passing knowledge of NT4 in general, and know a little about NT4
Server. Whatcha need to know?

-- 
	Maxx Excaliber
	mrmaxx@spamcop.net
Just a user, NOT an Admin/Deputy
From asterix at no_where.net  Fri Jan 14 21:01:13 2005
From: asterix at no_where.net (Asterix)
Date: Fri Jan 14 15:05:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: A Mac that even a PC user will drool for
References: <cs1v9u$omo$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.12.03.20.28.888000@eddie.web> <cs4c2g$9s0$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.13.00.23.25.817000@eddie.web>
	<dfm2a3l0t2-9BA4F0.18451713012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pan.2005.01.14.01.01.29.344000@eddie.web>
Message-ID: <1gqectp.qd181anii0caN%asterix@no_where.net>

eddie <eddie@eddie.web> wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:45:17 -0500, D.F. Manno scratched out the
> following:
> 
> snip
> > 
> > Not true. I used a three-button cordless mouse on my 7600 running OS 9.
> > 
> > Until I dropped the mouse.
> 
> I didn't know that. Mac really hides that from the public.

Yes and no. There was no inherent support in the OS. 
On OS 9 (and earlier) you had to install drivers for such thingies. 
No sweat - Logitech, Microsoft (!) and others supplied them on 
CD or even floppy disks (remember those?).

-- 
I recommend Macs to my friends, and Intel machines 
to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour
From nobody at spamcop.net  Fri Jan 14 15:03:36 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Maxx Excaliber)
Date: Fri Jan 14 15:05:07 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] SpamDeputy-like app for Outlook 97
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.14.20.03.36.293022@homelinux.org>

Anyone know of an app that'll make it easier to report spam from Outlook
97? We have a mix of Outlook2000 and Outlook97 here, mostly OL97. I've got
one user who's getting a lot of spam and I signed her up for a SpamCop
account, but now she needs a reporting helper tool
	Thanks.

-- 
	Maxx Excaliber
	mrmaxx@spamcop.net
Just a user, NOT an Admin/Deputy
From borgholio at storymind.com  Fri Jan 14 12:17:20 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Fri Jan 14 15:20:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Windows NT Sever pointers needed
In-Reply-To: <pan.2005.01.14.19.55.59.761626@homelinux.org>
References: <cs6e11$g9k$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.14.19.55.59.761626@homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <cs99cg$bfj$1@news.spamcop.net>

Maxx Excaliber wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:18:44 -0800, Borgholio wrote:
> 
> 
>>Anybody here familiar with NT Server 4.0?
>>
> 
> I have a passing knowledge of NT4 in general, and know a little about NT4
> Server. Whatcha need to know?
> 

I need to know two things at the moment.

1.  Where do I find NT Server's equivalent of the Device Manager?

2.  Where do I set local security settings?  (I want to disable the CTRL + 
ALT + DEL logon prompt, and the username logon prompt).
From r_buecheler at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 14 14:52:59 2005
From: r_buecheler at hotmail.com (Robi)
Date: Fri Jan 14 15:40:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Windows NT Sever pointers needed
References: <cs6e11$g9k$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.14.19.55.59.761626@homelinux.org> <cs99cg$bfj$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs9ak9$c80$1@news.spamcop.net>

Borgholio wrote in message news:cs99cg$bfj$1@news.spamcop.net...
> Maxx Excaliber wrote:
> > On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:18:44 -0800, Borgholio wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>Anybody here familiar with NT Server 4.0?
> >>
> > 
> > I have a passing knowledge of NT4 in general, and know a little about NT4
> > Server. Whatcha need to know?
> > 
> 
> I need to know two things at the moment.
> 
> 1.  Where do I find NT Server's equivalent of the Device Manager?
> 
> 2.  Where do I set local security settings?  (I want to disable the CTRL + 
> ALT + DEL logon prompt, and the username logon prompt).


on google?
http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/search?query=disable+CTRL+ALT+DEL+on+NT

I found
http://www.winnetmag.com/Article/ArticleID/14893/14893.html

or

http://www.windowsnetworking.com/kbase/WindowsTips/Windows2000/AdminTips/Security/DisableWindowsNTalt-ctrl-deldialogbuttons.html

for 1: use "Device Manager on NT" in the search box ;-)


HTH

-- 
Robi
From borgholio at storymind.com  Fri Jan 14 13:06:35 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Fri Jan 14 16:10:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Windows NT Sever pointers needed
In-Reply-To: <cs9ak9$c80$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <cs6e11$g9k$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.14.19.55.59.761626@homelinux.org> <cs99cg$bfj$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cs9ak9$c80$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cs9c8r$dcg$1@news.spamcop.net>

Robi wrote:
> Borgholio wrote in message news:cs99cg$bfj$1@news.spamcop.net...
> 
>>Maxx Excaliber wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:18:44 -0800, Borgholio wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Anybody here familiar with NT Server 4.0?
>>>>
>>>
>>>I have a passing knowledge of NT4 in general, and know a little about NT4
>>>Server. Whatcha need to know?
>>>
>>
>>I need to know two things at the moment.
>>
>>1.  Where do I find NT Server's equivalent of the Device Manager?
>>
>>2.  Where do I set local security settings?  (I want to disable the CTRL + 
>>ALT + DEL logon prompt, and the username logon prompt).
> 
> 
> 
> on google?
> http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/search?query=disable+CTRL+ALT+DEL+on+NT
> 
> I found
> http://www.winnetmag.com/Article/ArticleID/14893/14893.html
> 
> or
> 
> http://www.windowsnetworking.com/kbase/WindowsTips/Windows2000/AdminTips/Security/DisableWindowsNTalt-ctrl-deldialogbuttons.html
> 
> for 1: use "Device Manager on NT" in the search box ;-)
> 
> 
> HTH
> 


hmm....tried googling it, didn't work for me.  Thanks!
From nobody at spamcop.net  Fri Jan 14 16:39:44 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Maxx Excaliber)
Date: Fri Jan 14 16:40:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Windows NT Sever pointers needed
References: <cs6e11$g9k$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.14.19.55.59.761626@homelinux.org> <cs99cg$bfj$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.14.21.39.44.423904@homelinux.org>

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:17:20 -0800, Borgholio wrote:
> I need to know two things at the moment.
>
> 1.  Where do I find NT Server's equivalent of the
> Device Manager?
>
Hmm... Control Panel ->Devices. That's about as close to "device manager"
as you're going to find, AFAIK.

> 2.  Where do I set local security settings?  (I want to disable the CTRL
> + ALT + DEL logon prompt, and the username logon prompt).
>
Hmm... TweakUI is your friend. It sounds like you're wanting to auto-login
with a specific username/password. Tweakui can do that.

-- 
	Maxx Excaliber
	mrmaxx@spamcop.net
Just a user, NOT an Admin/Deputy
From eddie at eddie.web  Fri Jan 14 19:36:01 2005
From: eddie at eddie.web (eddie)
Date: Fri Jan 14 19:40:11 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: A Mac that even a PC user will drool for
References: <cs1v9u$omo$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.12.03.20.28.888000@eddie.web> <cs4c2g$9s0$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.13.00.23.25.817000@eddie.web>
	<dfm2a3l0t2-9BA4F0.18451713012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pan.2005.01.14.01.01.29.344000@eddie.web>
	<1gqectp.qd181anii0caN%asterix@no_where.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.15.00.36.01.207000@eddie.web>

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 21:01:13 +0100, Asterix scratched out the following:

snip
> Yes and no. There was no inherent support in the OS. On OS 9 (and earlier)
> you had to install drivers for such thingies. No sweat - Logitech,
> Microsoft (!) and others supplied them on CD or even floppy disks
> (remember those?).

I remember all three sizes, in single and double sided versions :)
From dfm2a3l0t2 at spymac.com  Fri Jan 14 20:41:49 2005
From: dfm2a3l0t2 at spymac.com (D.F. Manno)
Date: Fri Jan 14 20:45:26 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: A Mac that even a PC user will drool for
References: <cs1v9u$omo$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.12.03.20.28.888000@eddie.web> <cs4c2g$9s0$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.13.00.23.25.817000@eddie.web>
	<dfm2a3l0t2-9BA4F0.18451713012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pan.2005.01.14.01.01.29.344000@eddie.web>
Message-ID: <dfm2a3l0t2-214713.20414814012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <pan.2005.01.14.01.01.29.344000@eddie.web>,
 eddie <eddie@eddie.web> wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:45:17 -0500, D.F. Manno scratched out the
> following:
> 
> > Not true. I used a three-button cordless mouse on my 7600 running OS 9.
> > 
> > Until I dropped the mouse.
> 
> I didn't know that. Mac really hides that from the public. Did you need
> special software?

I needed a driver, which I downloaded from Logitech's Web site. (I got 
the mouse second-hand, and no software came with it.)
-- 
D.F. Manno
dfm2a3l0t2@spymac.com
"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream
will never die."
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Sat Jan 15 10:58:52 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Sat Jan 15 05:01:30 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: SpamDeputy-like app for Outlook 97
References: <pan.2005.01.14.20.03.36.293022@homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <slrncuhqas.mr.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:03:36 -0500, Maxx Excaliber coughed into
spamcop.geeks and left this in
<pan.2005.01.14.20.03.36.293022@homelinux.org>:

> Anyone know of an app that'll make it easier to report spam from Outlook
> 97? We have a mix of Outlook2000 and Outlook97 here, mostly OL97. I've got
> one user who's getting a lot of spam and I signed her up for a SpamCop
> account, but now she needs a reporting helper tool

Outlook has its uses in the corporate environment but dealing with mail 
in an standards-compliant manner is not one of them. Basically, Outlook 
is incapable of storing and regurgitating mail in the same format as 
when it arrived.

This user's best bet is to use a real mail client (even Outlook Express 
will do the trick if she really feels she has to stay with Micro$lop 
b0rkenware) which will store a verbatim copy of the inbound mail instead 
of mangling it into some form of local storage scheme and then 
attempting (and failing) to recreate the original.

If OL is the only software that gets the corporate blessing, you might 
want to Have A Talk(tm) with TPTB and mutter phrases such as "waste of 
time" and "lost productivity" trying to get on with life using OL, and 
how much easier things would be if you could use something that does the 
job properly like OE, or better still, Thunderbird.

-- 
Steve

Experience is something you don't get until just after
you need it.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sat Jan 15 05:18:07 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sat Jan 15 08:20:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Safe operating temperatures?
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>

What would one consider to be a safe operating temperature (both CPU 
temp and case temp) for the following system:

Motherboard: ABIT KV8-Pro
CPU: AMD Athlon64 3200 (2.2Ghz)
RAM: 512Mb
Disk: 160Gb SATA, 250Gb SATA (physically spaced out to permit more 
surface area cooling)
Optical: 1 CD-RW/DVD-ROM, 1 CD-ROM (the latter being mounted directly 
atop the former).
Graphics card: nVidia GeForce 6600GT
Other: Linksys LNE100TX network card. 350w power supply with own fans.

Cooling: 1 Zalman CNPS7000B-AlCu[1] mounted on CPU with Arctic Silver 5 
thermal compound in between. Rheostat removed so fan operates at max 
rated speed. 1 80mm case fan mounted at rear of case.

Current temperatures under full load:
CPU: 140°F
Case: 99°F

I'm afraid I can't measure the temperature of other components like the 
Northbridge or the hard disks; it would seem that the motherboard 
doesn't have temperature sensors in those areas.

I'm not overclocking or doing anything abnormal that would cause a 
dramatic increase in temperatures.

Given these specs, are my temperatures sane? The overheat alarms aren't 
going off (and I've configured the BIOS to alarm with CPU and case temps 
reach high levels as well as when fans stop turning, and shutdown at 
critically high temps and if fans have remained stopped for a while), 
but I'd still like to make sure that everything seems to be within safe 
parameters.

It would seem that my G5 runs slightly hotter, but it has substantially 
more fans at its disposal, even if it keeps them throttled down to low 
rpms most of the time. I know a bit about PC hardware, but I wanted to 
double-check and make sure I wasn't going to cause stuff to explode. :)

Cheers!

[1] http://www.zalman.co.kr/eng/product/view.asp?idx=142&code=005

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From user at domain.invalid  Sat Jan 15 08:54:19 2005
From: user at domain.invalid (User)
Date: Sat Jan 15 09:55:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <csbang$jia$1@news.spamcop.net>

On 15.01.2005 07:18, Pete Stephenson wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> What would one consider to be a safe operating temperature (both CPU 
> temp and case temp) for the following system:
> 
> Motherboard: ABIT KV8-Pro
> CPU: AMD Athlon64 3200 (2.2Ghz)
> RAM: 512Mb
> Disk: 160Gb SATA, 250Gb SATA (physically spaced out to permit more 
> surface area cooling)
> Optical: 1 CD-RW/DVD-ROM, 1 CD-ROM (the latter being mounted directly 
> atop the former).
> Graphics card: nVidia GeForce 6600GT
> Other: Linksys LNE100TX network card. 350w power supply with own fans.
> 
> Cooling: 1 Zalman CNPS7000B-AlCu[1] mounted on CPU with Arctic Silver 5 
> thermal compound in between. Rheostat removed so fan operates at max 
> rated speed. 1 80mm case fan mounted at rear of case.
> 
> Current temperatures under full load:
> CPU: 140?F
> Case: 99?F
> 
> I'm afraid I can't measure the temperature of other components like the 
> Northbridge or the hard disks; it would seem that the motherboard 
> doesn't have temperature sensors in those areas.
> 
> I'm not overclocking or doing anything abnormal that would cause a 
> dramatic increase in temperatures.
> 
> Given these specs, are my temperatures sane? The overheat alarms aren't 
> going off (and I've configured the BIOS to alarm with CPU and case temps 
> reach high levels as well as when fans stop turning, and shutdown at 
> critically high temps and if fans have remained stopped for a while), 
> but I'd still like to make sure that everything seems to be within safe 
> parameters.
> 
> It would seem that my G5 runs slightly hotter, but it has substantially 
> more fans at its disposal, even if it keeps them throttled down to low 
> rpms most of the time. I know a bit about PC hardware, but I wanted to 
> double-check and make sure I wasn't going to cause stuff to explode. :)
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> [1] http://www.zalman.co.kr/eng/product/view.asp?idx=142&code=005
> 

Geeze, we are REALLY close with the same components, cpu, ram (1 gig), 2
2-160 gig SATA

My temps in C:

CPU 37
Case 45

If your case temp is running well within specs then so will the
components, eg., HD, etc.

Running with ATI 9600 video with it's own 'huge' fan onboard.

I run 7 other boxes in here with 4 servers but that's my biggest box.
Even the IBM RS/6000 doesn't run anywhere near that hot. ;-)

From nobody at spamcop.net  Sat Jan 15 16:42:13 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat Jan 15 16:45:18 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> Cooling: 1 Zalman CNPS7000B-AlCu[1] mounted on CPU with Arctic Silver
> 5 thermal compound in between. Rheostat removed so fan operates at max
> rated speed. 1 80mm case fan mounted at rear of case.
>
> Current temperatures under full load:
> CPU: 140°F
> Case: 99°F
>

That CPU is running pretty damn hot, 60 C, especially if it's not under a
big load. I'm not sure about the Abit Mobo temp sensor accuracy (MSI boards
tend to report higher temps than actually exist), but I'd get some
thermocouples or something in there to double check some temps if I were
you -- 60 C for an AMD is borderline, you want 45 C or something colder than
that.

There's another problem I ran into when I rebuilt my PC with using the
onboard auto-shutdown overtemp commands too......if the sensor goes bad or
the fan cable comes loose you can't boot to bios to change the setting, the
system will not even post. Make sure you know how to flash the BIOS to reset
everything to default and make sure default for autoshutdown is "no"!


From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sat Jan 15 14:18:45 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sat Jan 15 17:20:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:

> That CPU is running pretty damn hot, 60 C, especially if it's not under a
> big load. I'm not sure about the Abit Mobo temp sensor accuracy (MSI boards
> tend to report higher temps than actually exist), but I'd get some
> thermocouples or something in there to double check some temps if I were
> you -- 60 C for an AMD is borderline, you want 45 C or something colder than
> that.

I get around 45°C when the CPU's idle with Cool'n'Quiet (i.e. it 
throttles the clock speed down to 1020Mhz) enabled.

I would assume that 90um-die processors would run a bit hotter than the 
130um ones. There's probably a bit more transistors in there to do all 
the 64-bit stuff than the 32-bit stuff. I perused AMD's site a bit, but 
I couldn't find any "safe operating temperature" limits that were 
published.

Last night, I did take the fan/heatsink off and re-applied some Arctic 
Silver 5 thermal compound and spread it around in a more suitable 
manner. The first time I applied it it wasn't spread very evenly.

Now CPU temps under full load are 57°C-62°C and case temps are 38°C.

I don't mind more noise for cooling (my RaQ3 is /really/ noisy, so 
anything else here would be masked by it), so adding another fan or two 
(one 80mm at the front of the case and maybe a PCI-slot fan) for the 
case is fine with me. The fan/heatsink on the CPU is hardly warm to the 
touch, and it consists of a fair amount of copper and aluminum with a 
120mm fan. I suspect that it can handle significantly hotter die 
temperatures and still manage them.

I think my limitation here is my case temperature -- it'll be hard to 
cool a CPU if the air immediately surrounding it is warm as well.

> There's another problem I ran into when I rebuilt my PC with using the
> onboard auto-shutdown overtemp commands too......if the sensor goes bad or
> the fan cable comes loose you can't boot to bios to change the setting, the
> system will not even post. Make sure you know how to flash the BIOS to reset
> everything to default and make sure default for autoshutdown is "no"!

Hmm. Interesting. I'll definitely see what I can do about that.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From borgholio at storymind.com  Sat Jan 15 19:23:34 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Sat Jan 15 22:25:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <cscmna$d8g$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> What would one consider to be a safe operating temperature (both CPU 
> temp and case temp) for the following system:
> 
> Motherboard: ABIT KV8-Pro
> CPU: AMD Athlon64 3200 (2.2Ghz)
> RAM: 512Mb
> Disk: 160Gb SATA, 250Gb SATA (physically spaced out to permit more 
> surface area cooling)
> Optical: 1 CD-RW/DVD-ROM, 1 CD-ROM (the latter being mounted directly 
> atop the former).
> Graphics card: nVidia GeForce 6600GT
> Other: Linksys LNE100TX network card. 350w power supply with own fans.
> 
> Cooling: 1 Zalman CNPS7000B-AlCu[1] mounted on CPU with Arctic Silver 5 
> thermal compound in between. Rheostat removed so fan operates at max 
> rated speed. 1 80mm case fan mounted at rear of case.
> 
> Current temperatures under full load:
> CPU: 140?F
> Case: 99?F
> 

> 


That's about right, for an AMD.  My P4 (2.4ghz) runs at 112F CPU and 86F 
Case.  AMDs run a bit hotter than Pentiums.
From none at domain.invalid  Sat Jan 15 19:38:24 2005
From: none at domain.invalid (Anonymous)
Date: Sat Jan 15 22:40:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Pete Stephenson" <pete+usenet@heypete.com> wrote in message 
news:pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net...
> I get around 45?C when the CPU's idle with Cool'n'Quiet (i.e. it
> throttles the clock speed down to 1020Mhz) enabled.

You need more case airflow, I think. That CPU should be running only a 
degree F or two over case temp at idle. Mine runs at room temp (case 
temp and room temp are always the same, due to pumping 120CFM through 
the case) at idle, and I've only seen a maximum of 105 degrees F at 
full load on a very warm day. I'm running a 2.4GHz P4 overclocked to 
3.0GHz, with a heatpipe CPU cooler and a 120CFM blower/filter assembly 
pumping air into the case via 4" bendable aluminum ducting (not the 
flexible 'aluminized' clothes dryer hose... the accordian-style 
bendable but otherwise rigid aluminum ducting).

Here's where I got the idea:
http://www.overclockers.com/tips1092/

Instead of using an axial fan, I'm using a squirrel cage blower 
(Panasonic FV-10NLF1). And in the link above, they're using the 
flexible aluminized clothes dryer hose, whereas I went with the 
bendable aluminum ducting.

From none at domain.invalid  Sat Jan 15 20:45:24 2005
From: none at domain.invalid (Anonymous)
Date: Sat Jan 15 23:45:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: SpamDeputy-like app for Outlook 97
References: <pan.2005.01.14.20.03.36.293022@homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <cscrf1$g2m$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Maxx Excaliber" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote in message 
news:pan.2005.01.14.20.03.36.293022@homelinux.org...
> Anyone know of an app that'll make it easier to report spam from 
> Outlook
> 97? We have a mix of Outlook2000 and Outlook97 here, mostly OL97. 
> I've got
> one user who's getting a lot of spam and I signed her up for a 
> SpamCop
> account, but now she needs a reporting helper tool
> Thanks.

Well, I think (but I'm not sure) that my SpammerSlammer VBA code might 
work with Outlook97. I'm using it on Outlook 2000, though, and haven't 
tested it on Outlook97.
http://www.hillscapital.com/spammerslammer.zip

It's an involved process setting it up, but it's highly flexible and 
lets you report to SpamCop and any other email addresses you want to 
use. You can also change the code to your liking, if you know VBA.

There's also Outlook SpamCop, which is self-contained code that 
started out as the Outlook SpamCop Reporter VBA code (and from which 
my SpammerSlammer is derived), which Leon Mayne and I worked on quite 
a while ago. He took it further by putting the code into an easily 
installable format and adding some features. My SpammerSlammer works 
for me, so I've not developed it to that point, but mine has some 
features that his doesn't. Again, I'm not sure if it will work with 
Outlook 97, but I know it'll work with later versions.
http://www.olspamcop.org/

Hope this helps.

From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sat Jan 15 20:55:39 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sun Jan 16 00:00:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Anonymous" <none@domain.invalid> wrote:

> You need more case airflow, I think.

Yeah, I'm thinkin' the same thing. It's odd, though -- this case has one 
exhaust port for an 80mm fan, and one mount for a same-size fan as an 
inlet...but there's no vent or any sort of opening for the fan -- it's 
just a grille at the front immediately in front of the hard disks. 
There's no opening to the outside. Very odd indeed.

Had I known this when I purchased the case, I would have gotten 
something more suitable. I was seriously tempted to look at the Koolance 
water-cooling system, but the price was just a bit too high. Perhaps 
when I upgrade my case or when things just start overheating by 
themselves.

I wonder if the intake fan would be useful -- the output fan is already 
drawing 26CFM, so I can't imagine that the intake fan would make that 
much of a difference, particularly with no intake grille near it. 
*shrugs*

> Here's where I got the idea:
> http://www.overclockers.com/tips1092/
> 
> Instead of using an axial fan, I'm using a squirrel cage blower 
> (Panasonic FV-10NLF1). And in the link above, they're using the 
> flexible aluminized clothes dryer hose, whereas I went with the 
> bendable aluminum ducting.

Holy crap. That's a bit much, if you ask me. It'd be nice, yes, but 
still a bit much. :)

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From nobody at spamcop.net  Sat Jan 15 23:45:27 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (RW)
Date: Sun Jan 16 00:50:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: query about port 8888
References: <crttet$38g$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cscv1k$i3h$1@news.spamcop.net>

> some of the addressees resolved by spa,mcop were even anti spam and abuse
> email addresses!

Most often, when looking up an IP on SpamCop it will return an "abuse" or 
some other anti-spam looking address.  That's what the service does --  
provides an address to report abuse to.

Richard 


From nobody at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 16 00:06:41 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (RW)
Date: Sun Jan 16 01:10:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscmna$d8g$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csd09e$it7$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Borgholio" <borgholio@storymind.com> wrote in message 
news:cscmna$d8g$1@news.spamcop.net...
> Pete Stephenson wrote:

>> Current temperatures under full load:
>> CPU: 140°F
>> Case: 99°F

> That's about right, for an AMD.  My P4 (2.4ghz) runs at 112F CPU and 86F 
> Case.  AMDs run a bit hotter than Pentiums.

You got that right.  When I was running AMD (2200XP) it'd warm my room up 
several degrees after a few hours running.  I don't remember the temps it 
would run at, but I do recall worrying about them.  I had the bios set to 
cut the speed back if it got too hot, which it did too sometimes even with 
its three case fans.

I went back to Intel on my latest computer.  This CPU holds at a constant 
93.2 F.

Pete - You didn't mention the environment, like making sure the box is kept 
in the open, not tucked under a desk or in a cabinet.

Richard 


From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sun Jan 16 00:04:46 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sun Jan 16 03:05:13 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscmna$d8g$1@news.spamcop.net> <csd09e$it7$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-13D51F.00044616012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <csd09e$it7$1@news.spamcop.net>, "RW" <nobody@spamcop.net> 
wrote:

> Pete - You didn't mention the environment, like making sure the box is kept 
> in the open, not tucked under a desk or in a cabinet.

Ah, my apologies.

It's kept under the desk with the exhaust facing toward a wall (though 
with about a foot of clearance and plenty of room overhead for the 
heated air to spill out).

The G5 is right next to it, but with about three inches of clearance to 
allow room air to enter the slats on the side of the case.

My clock/thermometer on the wall indicates it's 75°F here, and the G5's 
temperature sensors indicate that the temperature of air at the "main 
logic board air inlet" (presumably the front of the computer) is 72.7°F, 
which seems pretty spot on. The sides of the PC near the slats are cool 
to the touch, indicating a good intake of air.

In short: The computer is not in a restricted-airflow environment, nor 
does it recycle it's own hot-air exhaust.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From nobody at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 16 07:57:28 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Maxx Excaliber)
Date: Sun Jan 16 08:00:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: SpamDeputy-like app for Outlook 97
References: <pan.2005.01.14.20.03.36.293022@homelinux.org>
	<slrncuhqas.mr.nobody@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.16.12.57.28.499645@homelinux.org>

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:58:52 +0100, Steven Maesslein wrote:
[snip]
> 
> If OL is the only software that gets the corporate blessing, you might
> want to Have A Talk(tm) with TPTB and mutter phrases such as "waste of
> time" and "lost productivity" trying to get on with life using OL, and how
> much easier things would be if you could use something that does the job
> properly like OE, or better still, Thunderbird.
>
No can do. We're an Exchange 5.5 shop and they don't want to enable POP3.
Besides they like the other features of Exchange/Outlook (calendering,
appointment scheduling, etc.)

-- 
	Maxx Excaliber
	mrmaxx@spamcop.net
Just a user, NOT an Admin/Deputy
From nobody at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 16 12:12:41 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun Jan 16 12:15:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <cse76o$9oj$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
>
> Now CPU temps under full load are 57°C-62°C and case temps are 38°C.
>
> I think my limitation here is my case temperature -- it'll be hard to
> cool a CPU if the air immediately surrounding it is warm as well.

Yeah, your case temps are pretty high. My 2.0 Ghz AMD runs around 48 C, case
about 24 C, but then I installed my case fan in the optimal location *after*
I installed the MoBo and hard drives, remember? (poke, poke :-)

>
>> There's another problem I ran into when I rebuilt my PC with using
>> the onboard auto-shutdown overtemp commands too......if the sensor
>> goes bad or the fan cable comes loose you can't boot to bios to
>> change the setting, the system will not even post. Make sure you
>> know how to flash the BIOS to reset everything to default and make
>> sure default for autoshutdown is "no"!
>
> Hmm. Interesting. I'll definitely see what I can do about that.

Just trying to prevent a tearing-out-all-your-hair-WTF-is-going-on event for
ya bud ;-)


From nobody at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 16 12:17:50 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun Jan 16 12:20:20 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> In article <cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>,
>  "Anonymous" <none@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
>> You need more case airflow, I think.
>
> Yeah, I'm thinkin' the same thing. It's odd, though -- this case has
> one exhaust port for an 80mm fan, and one mount for a same-size fan
> as an inlet...but there's no vent or any sort of opening for the fan
> -- it's just a grille at the front immediately in front of the hard
> disks. There's no opening to the outside. Very odd indeed.

Huh? Your case doesn't have rows of vent holes on one side? If not, that's
your problem right there. You're forcing the air out of that one exhaust
port? That means you're bypassing airflow over the MoBo. You want something
close to laminar flow over the board, meaning you need vents across the
whole side of the case opposite the fan blowing air into the case.


From MikeE at ster.invalid  Sun Jan 16 13:06:28 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Sun Jan 16 16:05:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <csektq$iid$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> Had I known this when I purchased the case, I would have gotten
> something more suitable.

You never did say exactly what the case was.


-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin
From me at privacty.net  Sun Jan 16 16:38:40 2005
From: me at privacty.net (Heidi)
Date: Sun Jan 16 16:40:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Word Tools menu corrupted
Message-ID: <csemue$jnk$1@news.spamcop.net>

I am hoping the answer to this is not 'reinstall'....  I have Win ME,
running Word 2000, and the Tool menu seems to be corrupted, when I click on
it I get about 15 items on the menu that say "mail merge".  The rest of the
items are there, but for some reason the mail merge command appears multiple
times, only one with an arrow and sub menu.  Any ideas on how to get rid of
the extras or why they're appearing?  TIA.


From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sun Jan 16 15:25:19 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sun Jan 16 18:30:29 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:

> Huh? Your case doesn't have rows of vent holes on one side? If not, that's
> your problem right there. You're forcing the air out of that one exhaust
> port? That means you're bypassing airflow over the MoBo. You want something
> close to laminar flow over the board, meaning you need vents across the
> whole side of the case opposite the fan blowing air into the case.

Wait, no! Confusion alarm!

It does have slats on the side panels, of course. It also has a grille 
for an exhaust fan on the back in a suitable place to draw air over the 
motherboard. However, it /also/ has an intake fan mount point on the 
front, but oddly enough there's no intake grille for that particular fan.

Here's the case I bought: 
<http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=11-154-017&DEP
A=1>, and there's lots of photographs of it.

Picture #2 shows a close up of the USB ports at the very front (which 
are mounted immediately in front of that intake fan area. Picture #4 
shows about a third of the intake fan area in the far bottom-right. 
There appears to be a grille cut in the metal of the case, but there's 
no opening in the outer, plastic case.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From devnull at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 16 20:20:52 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Sun Jan 16 20:25:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Help with W-XPpro
Message-ID: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net>

My son ( am Apple Mac man) roommate has inherited a PC with XPpro.  System
will not boot to the HDD.  He's tried to boot to SAFE mode and to C:\ with
the result that the system keeps trying to self reboot but never getting to
the Windows Splash screen.

I have limited experience with XP anything and have no idea what to suggest.
(he has all the CD and the Key codes -- not sure if he has the owner's
manuals at this point.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Regards

FP
brother_rabbit @ hotmail.com

PS I'm looking for a copy of Win98 SE if anyone has one for sale.  Can be a
full copy or an upgrade.


From borgholio at storymind.com  Sun Jan 16 17:47:50 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Sun Jan 16 20:50:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
In-Reply-To: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csf5fg$s7l$1@news.spamcop.net>

Frog Prince wrote:
> My son ( am Apple Mac man) roommate has inherited a PC with XPpro.  System
> will not boot to the HDD.  He's tried to boot to SAFE mode and to C:\ with
> the result that the system keeps trying to self reboot but never getting to
> the Windows Splash screen.
> 
> I have limited experience with XP anything and have no idea what to suggest.
> (he has all the CD and the Key codes -- not sure if he has the owner's
> manuals at this point.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.
> 
> Regards
> 
> FP
> brother_rabbit @ hotmail.com
> 
> PS I'm looking for a copy of Win98 SE if anyone has one for sale.  Can be a
> full copy or an upgrade.
> 
> 

Do a Repair Install.
From devnull at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 16 21:28:56 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Sun Jan 16 21:30:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf5fg$s7l$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csf7tf$tmf$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Borgholio" <borgholio@storymind.com> wrote in message
news:csf5fg$s7l$1@news.spamcop.net...
| Frog Prince wrote:
| > My son ( am Apple Mac man) roommate has inherited a PC with XPpro.
System
| > will not boot to the HDD.  He's tried to boot to SAFE mode and to C:\
with
| > the result that the system keeps trying to self reboot but never getting
to
| > the Windows Splash screen.
| >
| > I have limited experience with XP anything and have no idea what to
suggest.
| > (he has all the CD and the Key codes -- not sure if he has the owner's
| > manuals at this point.
| >
| > Any suggestions would be appreciated.
| >
| > Regards
| >
| > FP
| > brother_rabbit @ hotmail.com
| >
| > PS I'm looking for a copy of Win98 SE if anyone has one for sale.  Can
be a
| > full copy or an upgrade.
| >
| >
|
| Do a Repair Install.

Ok how to do that?  FWIW he cannot get the system to access the CD.  I don't
know if this is a hardware/software or a case of open Tech (he's a mac kind
of guy and we definitely don't speak the same language <g>)


From borgholio at storymind.com  Sun Jan 16 18:34:52 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Sun Jan 16 21:35:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
In-Reply-To: <csf7tf$tmf$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf5fg$s7l$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf7tf$tmf$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csf87m$tpc$1@news.spamcop.net>

Frog Prince wrote:
> "Borgholio" <borgholio@storymind.com> wrote in message

> | >
> |
> | Do a Repair Install.
> 
> Ok how to do that?  FWIW he cannot get the system to access the CD.  I don't
> know if this is a hardware/software or a case of open Tech (he's a mac kind
> of guy and we definitely don't speak the same language <g>)
> 
> 

With Windows XP, the CD is bootable.  To do a repair install, you simply 
need to put the CD in the drive, and fire up the system.  It should be 
pretty simple after that.
From devnull at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 16 21:51:47 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Sun Jan 16 22:05:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf5fg$s7l$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf7tf$tmf$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf87m$tpc$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csf9nj$um2$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Borgholio"

| > | Do a Repair Install.
| >
| > Ok how to do that?  FWIW he cannot get the system to access the CD.  I
don't
| > know if this is a hardware/software or a case of open Tech (he's a mac
kind
| > of guy and we definitely don't speak the same language <g>)
| >

| With Windows XP, the CD is bootable.  To do a repair install, you simply
| need to put the CD in the drive, and fire up the system.  It should be
| pretty simple after that.

I had to clt/alt/del my mind set.  Recall this is a Mac kind of guy so I had
him go to the BIOS set up and read me the boot configuration.   Seems it was
set up for A:/C:/SCSI:   He reset to A:/C:/CD:and the system is rebooting
from the XPpro CD.   He grabbed a brew and went into the play/learn mode and
will call me back later.

Thanks.

FP


From borgholio at storymind.com  Sun Jan 16 19:02:11 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Sun Jan 16 22:05:09 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
In-Reply-To: <csf9nj$um2$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf5fg$s7l$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf7tf$tmf$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf87m$tpc$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf9nj$um2$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csf9qt$uma$1@news.spamcop.net>

Frog Prince wrote:

> 
> I had to clt/alt/del my mind set.  Recall this is a Mac kind of guy so I had
> him go to the BIOS set up and read me the boot configuration.   Seems it was
> set up for A:/C:/SCSI:   He reset to A:/C:/CD:and the system is rebooting
> from the XPpro CD.   He grabbed a brew and went into the play/learn mode and
> will call me back later.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> FP
> 
> 

No prob.  A repair install should work.  If not (and seeing as how he just 
got the computer) doing a full reformat / reinstall might be better in the 
long run.  Keep me posted.  :)
From devnull at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 16 22:07:22 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Sun Jan 16 22:35:27 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf5fg$s7l$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf7tf$tmf$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf87m$tpc$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf9nj$um2$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf9qt$uma$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csfbkl$vp0$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Borgholio"

| > I had to clt/alt/del my mind set.  Recall this is a Mac kind of guy so I
had
| > him go to the BIOS set up and read me the boot configuration.   Seems it
was
| > set up for A:/C:/SCSI:   He reset to A:/C:/CD:and the system is
rebooting
| > from the XPpro CD.   He grabbed a brew and went into the play/learn mode
and
| > will call me back later.

|
| No prob.  A repair install should work.  If not (and seeing as how he just
| got the computer) doing a full reformat / reinstall might be better in the
| long run.  Keep me posted.  :)

I'm letting him play with the computer in it's current configuration and
with it's current problems.  AFTER he gets the RGS (Redmond Golden Shower)
then I'm going to recommend he do a full format. <g>

Seems he is enjoying his visit to the darkside.


From devnull at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 16 22:16:48 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Sun Jan 16 22:35:29 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Wild A**ed Idea
Message-ID: <csfbkm$vp0$2@news.spamcop.net>

Is it possible to operate a WiFi Hot spot using a remote server whereby ALL
the communications with the internet is not detectable as using a particular
ISP.

I have no problem with the ISP being the one providing the remote server but
don't want someone receiving either a web connection or email to be able to
tell where in the country or which ISP is providing the connection to the
WiFi AP.

Not a big deal but at this time an interesting idea as it would allow me to
do a few things that would not be practical otherwise. (nothing illegal)



From nobody at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 16 22:03:25 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (RW)
Date: Sun Jan 16 23:05:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <csfde9$18t$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Pete Stephenson" <pete+usenet@heypete.com> wrote in message 
news:pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net...
>
> Wait, no! Confusion alarm!
>
> It does have slats on the side panels, of course. It also has a grille
> for an exhaust fan on the back in a suitable place to draw air over the
> motherboard. However, it /also/ has an intake fan mount point on the
> front, but oddly enough there's no intake grille for that particular fan.
>
> Here's the case I bought:
> <http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=11-154-017&DEP
> A=1>, and there's lots of photographs of it.

Looks very similar to the case I used when I built my AMD.  I used a Super 
Case 0538, which has extra venting on the sides as well as in the front 
cover around the floppy slots.

Your case is probably relying on it getting its air flow from below, between 
the front cover and the case.  Make sure there is nothing restricting flow 
there (i.e. carpet).  You might also consider adding a fan to the back 
grille blowing out.

My current case with the P4 has two fans on the front, one on the back, one 
on the PS, one on the video card and one on the CPU, which is ducted 
directly to the side panel.  I make sure I vacuum all the vents at least 
once a month.

Richard 


From borgholio at storymind.com  Sun Jan 16 20:47:55 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Sun Jan 16 23:50:06 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
In-Reply-To: <csfbkl$vp0$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf5fg$s7l$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf7tf$tmf$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf87m$tpc$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf9nj$um2$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf9qt$uma$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csfbkl$vp0$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csfg14$2q4$1@news.spamcop.net>

Frog Prince wrote:

> 
> Seems he is enjoying his visit to the darkside.
> 
> 

Hey, Darth Vader had the galaxy under his thumb, and Luke was never anything 
more than a whiny little bitch.  Dark Side all the way baby!  :)
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Mon Jan 17 05:25:40 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Mon Jan 17 00:30:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95E0DA0FDD90Dblammo@216.154.195.61>

On 16 Jan 2005 Frog Prince entered spamcop.geeks and left
news:csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net: 

> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.
> 

If there is a hardware problem, XP will not boot at all, even if you 
reinstall. The CD may or may not inform you of the problem.

> 
> PS I'm looking for a copy of Win98 SE if anyone has one for sale.  Can
> be a full copy or an upgrade.
> 
> 

You could check eBay or just install some version of Linux. Then you could 
install Wine or for many other alternatives...
http://www.microsuck.com/
In the Forums there they will happily help you avoid Microsoft products. 
Probably more educational than trying to get XP to work.

-- 
| Ric
|
From devnull at spamcop.net  Mon Jan 17 00:15:54 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Mon Jan 17 00:30:08 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf5fg$s7l$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf7tf$tmf$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf87m$tpc$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf9nj$um2$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf9qt$uma$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csfbkl$vp0$1@news.spamcop.net> <csfg14$2q4$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csfies$49q$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Borgholio"

| > Seems he is enjoying his visit to the darkside.

| Hey, Darth Vader had the galaxy under his thumb, and Luke was never
anything
| more than a whiny little bitch.  Dark Side all the way baby!  :)

James Earl Jones is always D-V the rest of the cast just gets old.

I caught him on the Diane Rehm show a while back.  Seems when he was
traveling by car he used a CB radio with the handled Darth Vader.  How would
that voice be to coming out of the speaker get your attention some very dark
& late night a long way from no-where?

audio @ http://wamu.org/programs/dr/04/10/07.php


From devnull at spamcop.net  Mon Jan 17 00:32:57 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Mon Jan 17 00:35:18 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95E0DA0FDD90Dblammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <csfimn$4g1$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Blammo" <ric.gates@bigsleep.org> wrote in message
news:Xns95E0DA0FDD90Dblammo@216.154.195.61...
| On 16 Jan 2005 Frog Prince entered spamcop.geeks and left
| news:csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net:
|
| >
| > Any suggestions would be appreciated.
| >
|
| If there is a hardware problem, XP will not boot at all, even if you
| reinstall. The CD may or may not inform you of the problem.
|
| >
| > PS I'm looking for a copy of Win98 SE if anyone has one for sale.  Can
| > be a full copy or an upgrade.
| >
| >
|
| You could check eBay or just install some version of Linux. Then you could
| install Wine or for many other alternatives...
| http://www.microsuck.com/
| In the Forums there they will happily help you avoid Microsoft products.
| Probably more educational than trying to get XP to work.

One step at a time.  I'm not very comfortable with XP (I've avoided the
program to the extent possible) and have zero experience with Linux.  I have
plans to play with it but have more on my plate right now so I cannot devote
much time to either.


From rcarlton at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 16 21:40:02 2005
From: rcarlton at spamcop.net (Rick Carlton)
Date: Mon Jan 17 00:45:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Word Tools menu corrupted
In-Reply-To: <csemue$jnk$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <csemue$jnk$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csfj3i$4pd$1@news.spamcop.net>

Heidi wrote:
> I am hoping the answer to this is not 'reinstall'....  I have Win ME,
> running Word 2000, and the Tool menu seems to be corrupted, when I click on
> it I get about 15 items on the menu that say "mail merge".  The rest of the
> items are there, but for some reason the mail merge command appears multiple
> times, only one with an arrow and sub menu.  Any ideas on how to get rid of
> the extras or why they're appearing?  TIA.


Found these links - HTH

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/230053

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/211793/EN-US/
From borgholio at storymind.com  Sun Jan 16 21:51:55 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Mon Jan 17 00:55:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
In-Reply-To: <csfies$49q$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf5fg$s7l$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf7tf$tmf$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf87m$tpc$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf9nj$um2$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf9qt$uma$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csfbkl$vp0$1@news.spamcop.net> <csfg14$2q4$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csfies$49q$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csfjp3$584$1@news.spamcop.net>

Frog Prince wrote:

> 
> I caught him on the Diane Rehm show a while back.  Seems when he was
> traveling by car he used a CB radio with the handled Darth Vader.  How would
> that voice be to coming out of the speaker get your attention some very dark
> & late night a long way from no-where?
> 
> audio @ http://wamu.org/programs/dr/04/10/07.php
> 
> 

I could only listen to that for a few minutes before I was pulling my hair 
out.  Could that woman possibly speak any SLOWER????  Gah!
From devnull at spamcop.net  Mon Jan 17 00:59:08 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Mon Jan 17 01:00:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf5fg$s7l$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf7tf$tmf$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf87m$tpc$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf9nj$um2$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf9qt$uma$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csfbkl$vp0$1@news.spamcop.net> <csfg14$2q4$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csfies$49q$1@news.spamcop.net> <csfjp3$584$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csfk7h$5hd$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Borgholio"

| > I caught him on the Diane Rehm show a while back.  Seems when he was
| > traveling by car he used a CB radio with the handled Darth Vader.  How
would
| > that voice be to coming out of the speaker get your attention some very
dark
| > & late night a long way from no-where?
| >
| > audio @ http://wamu.org/programs/dr/04/10/07.php

| I could only listen to that for a few minutes before I was pulling my hair
| out.  Could that woman possibly speak any SLOWER????  Gah!

She has damage vocal cords and has experienced a remarkable recovery.  (most
with her DX do not recover enough to even speak much less go back on the
air).

As to slow talking women ... recall the story about the southern girl that
spoke so slowly that by the time she said she was not that kind of girl she
was...



From borgholio at storymind.com  Sun Jan 16 22:41:46 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Mon Jan 17 01:45:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
In-Reply-To: <csfk7h$5hd$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf5fg$s7l$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf7tf$tmf$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf87m$tpc$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csf9nj$um2$1@news.spamcop.net> <csf9qt$uma$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csfbkl$vp0$1@news.spamcop.net> <csfg14$2q4$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csfies$49q$1@news.spamcop.net> <csfjp3$584$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csfk7h$5hd$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csfmmi$6qa$1@news.spamcop.net>

Frog Prince wrote:

> 
> She has damage vocal cords and has experienced a remarkable recovery.  (most
> with her DX do not recover enough to even speak much less go back on the
> air).

Ah I see.  Still not easy to listen to...

> 
> As to slow talking women ... recall the story about the southern girl that
> spoke so slowly that by the time she said she was not that kind of girl she
> was...
> 
> 
> 

lol  :)
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sun Jan 16 23:34:24 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Mon Jan 17 02:35:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csfde9$18t$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-A2A24D.23342416012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <csfde9$18t$1@news.spamcop.net>, "RW" <nobody@spamcop.net> 
wrote:

> Your case is probably relying on it getting its air flow from below, between 
> the front cover and the case.  Make sure there is nothing restricting flow 
> there (i.e. carpet).  You might also consider adding a fan to the back 
> grille blowing out.

Nope, no openings at all on the bottom -- the only openings in the case 
that appear to be designed for airflow are the slats on the side and the 
grille on the back, which already has an 80mm fan. *shrugs*

> My current case with the P4 has two fans on the front, one on the back, one 
> on the PS, one on the video card and one on the CPU, which is ducted 
> directly to the side panel.  I make sure I vacuum all the vents at least 
> once a month.

Yeowch. :)

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Mon Jan 17 09:25:23 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Mon Jan 17 04:30:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Help with W-XPpro
References: <csf3tq$r89$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95E0DA0FDD90Dblammo@216.154.195.61> <csfimn$4g1$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95E1E91B17E2blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 16 Jan 2005 Frog Prince entered spamcop.geeks and left
news:csfimn$4g1$1@news.spamcop.net: 

> One step at a time.  I'm not very comfortable with XP (I've avoided
> the program to the extent possible) and have zero experience with
> Linux.  I have plans to play with it but have more on my plate right
> now so I cannot devote much time to either.
> 

Hmm, I thought OSX was a UNIX (BSD) oS?
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/unix_open_source/
http://www.opendarwin.org/en/about.html

I just thought you wanted your son to actually learn something.


-- 
| Ric
|
From nobody at devnll.spamcop.net  Mon Jan 17 09:12:57 2005
From: nobody at devnll.spamcop.net (Spamvireslayer)
Date: Mon Jan 17 09:15:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Word Tools menu corrupted
References: <csemue$jnk$1@news.spamcop.net> <csfj3i$4pd$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csgh73$lqd$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Rick Carlton" <rcarlton@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:csfj3i$4pd$1@news.spamcop.net...
>
> Found these links - HTH
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/230053
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/211793/EN-US/

Thanks, I hadn't got to MS support yet, I generally find them useless, their search
never turns up anything unless you word it exactly the way they do.  Note to self:
don't make changes without coffee...I just tried the first link and blew away my
carefully crafted normal template, which of course I did not back up before I did
anything.  Fortunately I have it here at work so I can replace it.  Didn't work on
the menu, by the way, all my special buttons were gone but the menu full of mail
merges was still there.  I'll try the other one when I get home tonight.


From wb8tyw at qsl.network  Mon Jan 17 10:16:19 2005
From: wb8tyw at qsl.network (John E. Malmberg)
Date: Mon Jan 17 10:20:19 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Wild A**ed Idea - WiFi and NAT.
In-Reply-To: <csfbkm$vp0$2@news.spamcop.net>
References: <csfbkm$vp0$2@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csgks4$o3g$1@news.spamcop.net>

Frog Prince wrote:
> Is it possible to operate a WiFi Hot spot using a remote server whereby ALL
> the communications with the internet is not detectable as using a particular
> ISP.

Yes.  It is called NAT and it is can be associated with tunneling or 
using a VPN.  It is used all over the place and you should be able to 
find commercial appliances that handle everything for you.

Or you can put such software on just about any commercial server if you 
think that route is cheaper.

A WiFi hot spot requires additional security over a regular network tap 
anyway because you are allowing guest connections from computers that 
you have neither verified their security or their intentions.

A WiFi hot spot should typically be sitting through a NAT firewall so 
that spammers can not host web and ftp servers on it.  It also needs to 
have port 25 blocked so that spammers will not join in just to spew.

-John
wb8ytw@qsl.network
Personal Opinion Only
From eddie at eddie.web  Mon Jan 17 12:45:54 2005
From: eddie at eddie.web (eddie)
Date: Mon Jan 17 12:50:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] panix.com was hijacked
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.17.17.45.54.63000@eddie.web>

I just read that panix.com has retrieved their domain after it was
hijacked. Is nothing sacred anymore? They are one of the older ISPs and I
guess they didn't keep abreast of the new rules about registration. Who is
next?
From nobody at spamcop.net  Mon Jan 17 13:09:02 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon Jan 17 13:10:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Pete Stephenson" <pete+usenet@heypete.com> wrote in message
news:pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net...
>
> It does have slats on the side panels, of course. It also has a grille
> for an exhaust fan on the back in a suitable place to draw air over the
> motherboard. However, it /also/ has an intake fan mount point on the
> front, but oddly enough there's no intake grille for that particular fan.
>

My (thermal engineer) opinion is that you should be using that fan mount on
the back of the case to blow air *into* the case and over the MoBo, not
exhausting air *out* of it. More efficient that way due to pressure drops
and such, and you're blowing cool air into the box instead of pulling hotter
internal air over the Mobo. You could play with reversing the fan and seeing
if it makes a difference in CPU and case temps.

> Here's the case I bought:
> <http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=11-154-017&DEP
> A=1>, and there's lots of photographs of it.
>
> Picture #2 shows a close up of the USB ports at the very front (which
> are mounted immediately in front of that intake fan area.

Looks like a pretty USB hidey-cover, not a real grill.


From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Mon Jan 17 14:10:55 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Mon Jan 17 17:15:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:

> My (thermal engineer) opinion is that you should be using that fan mount on
> the back of the case to blow air *into* the case and over the MoBo, not
> exhausting air *out* of it. More efficient that way due to pressure drops
> and such, and you're blowing cool air into the box instead of pulling hotter
> internal air over the Mobo. You could play with reversing the fan and seeing
> if it makes a difference in CPU and case temps.

Really? I was always under the impression that it's easier to /pull/ hot 
air out of the case, rather than push cool air in. I'll give it a shot.

> Looks like a pretty USB hidey-cover, not a real grill.

Pretty much.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Mon Jan 17 14:17:54 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Mon Jan 17 17:20:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: panix.com was hijacked
References: <pan.2005.01.17.17.45.54.63000@eddie.web>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-728C20.14175417012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <pan.2005.01.17.17.45.54.63000@eddie.web>,
 eddie <eddie@eddie.web> wrote:

> I just read that panix.com has retrieved their domain after it was
> hijacked. Is nothing sacred anymore? They are one of the older ISPs and I
> guess they didn't keep abreast of the new rules about registration. Who is
> next?

Yikes. Panix is good people. Mildly alarming that it could happen to 
them.

It would appear that everything is back to normal, with Panix.com on the 
MelbourneIT registrar (was it there before?), with proper DNS entries 
and a "REGISTRY-LOCK" (which is always a good thing to have).

It would be prudent for all who maintain domain names to ensure that 
proper security measures (i.e. registry-locks, good passwords, etc.) are 
implemented.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From eddie at eddie.web  Mon Jan 17 22:58:27 2005
From: eddie at eddie.web (eddie)
Date: Mon Jan 17 23:00:19 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: panix.com was hijacked
References: <pan.2005.01.17.17.45.54.63000@eddie.web>
	<pete+usenet-728C20.14175417012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<responseguard-638051.18411117012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.18.03.58.26.464000@eddie.web>

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:41:11 -0800, Bob W. scratched out the following:

snip
> Makes me wonder whether Panix had accidentally allowed the contact email
> on the registration to go sour... or if nobody happened to pick up that
> account during the week... or if their regular registrar screwed up and
> didn't send an email to the registrant contact.  :/

I read somewhere that that was probably the case. Under new rules, you
have 5 days, I think, to respond to a change order. If you do not respond,
the change goes through. Unless the domain is locked.
I have all mine locked after someone attempted a hijack last year. I got
an email and immediately called my registrar. I then locked all of them.
But locks can be picked ... :) There is no real safety out there.
From rcarlton at spamcop.net  Mon Jan 17 22:43:52 2005
From: rcarlton at spamcop.net (Rick Carlton)
Date: Tue Jan 18 01:45:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Word Tools menu corrupted
In-Reply-To: <csgh73$lqd$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <csemue$jnk$1@news.spamcop.net> <csfj3i$4pd$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csgh73$lqd$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csib7a$pvh$1@news.spamcop.net>

Spamvireslayer wrote:
> Thanks, I hadn't got to MS support yet, I generally find them useless, their search
> never turns up anything unless you word it exactly the way they do.  Note to self:
> don't make changes without coffee...I just tried the first link and blew away my
> carefully crafted normal template, which of course I did not back up before I did
> anything.  Fortunately I have it here at work so I can replace it.  Didn't work on
> the menu, by the way, all my special buttons were gone but the menu full of mail
> merges was still there.  I'll try the other one when I get home tonight.

Aw man....

I believe there was also a "Repair" option for Office 2000 and its apps. 
  Add/Remove-->Offiice2000-->Remove/Repair

Dumb question, but... the one MailMerge menu entry that has a 
subordinate entry - is it supposed to be there?

And by any chance - are the number of other Merge menu entries about 
equal to the number of times you've mail merged since the macro was 
updated?
From user at domain.invalid  Tue Jan 18 08:36:59 2005
From: user at domain.invalid (User)
Date: Tue Jan 18 09:40:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: panix.com was hijacked
In-Reply-To: <pan.2005.01.18.03.58.26.464000@eddie.web>
References: <pan.2005.01.17.17.45.54.63000@eddie.web>
	<pete+usenet-728C20.14175417012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<responseguard-638051.18411117012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pan.2005.01.18.03.58.26.464000@eddie.web>
Message-ID: <csj6sr$90d$1@news.spamcop.net>

On 17.01.2005 21:58, eddie wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:41:11 -0800, Bob W. scratched out the following:
> 
> snip
>> Makes me wonder whether Panix had accidentally allowed the contact email
>> on the registration to go sour... or if nobody happened to pick up that
>> account during the week... or if their regular registrar screwed up and
>> didn't send an email to the registrant contact.  :/
> 
> I read somewhere that that was probably the case. Under new rules, you
> have 5 days, I think, to respond to a change order. If you do not respond,
> the change goes through. Unless the domain is locked.
> I have all mine locked after someone attempted a hijack last year. I got
> an email and immediately called my registrar. I then locked all of them.
> But locks can be picked ... :) There is no real safety out there.

My 18 domains have been reg'd with Melbourne for quite some time. I get
an email to the effect that unless I reply othewise, the domain will be
automagically renewed.
From nobody at spamcop.net  Tue Jan 18 15:13:34 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue Jan 18 15:15:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> In article <csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>,
>  "Indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> My (thermal engineer) opinion is that you should be using that fan
>> mount on the back of the case to blow air *into* the case and over
>> the MoBo, not exhausting air *out* of it. More efficient that way
>> due to pressure drops and such, and you're blowing cool air into the
>> box instead of pulling hotter internal air over the Mobo. You could
>> play with reversing the fan and seeing if it makes a difference in
>> CPU and case temps.
>
> Really? I was always under the impression that it's easier to /pull/
> hot air out of the case, rather than push cool air in. I'll give it a
> shot.

It might by *easier* but it's not the correct thermal gradient you want. A
higher (but hotter) air flow rate is not necessarily better than lower (but
colder) air flow rate, but then again it all depends on the internal
configuration. Plus pushing air into the case gives the case a higher
internal pressure than the ambient surroundings and should help keep dust
out.


From borgholio at storymind.com  Tue Jan 18 12:26:03 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Tue Jan 18 15:30:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
In-Reply-To: <csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csjrcl$mfg$1@news.spamcop.net>

Indigo wrote:

> 
> It might by *easier* but it's not the correct thermal gradient you want. A
> higher (but hotter) air flow rate is not necessarily better than lower (but
> colder) air flow rate, but then again it all depends on the internal
> configuration. Plus pushing air into the case gives the case a higher
> internal pressure than the ambient surroundings and should help keep dust
> out.
> 
> 

Look at my case for a good example of airflow:

http://www.storymindmedia.com/borgholio/images/case.jpg

http://www.storymindmedia.com/borgholio/images/case1.jpg

http://www.storymindmedia.com/borgholio/images/case2.jpg

My case has a HUGE front grill, that lets air flow past the hard drives (you 
can see their silouhettes) and across every part of the motherboard 
(chipset, cpu, video card, etc...).  I have a total of 5 fans...two in the 
power supply, the two on the back wall, and one in the top panel (not 
pictured).  Even in the middle of summer when the room is 90 degrees (not 
kidding), all the components are cool to the touch (even the CPU heatsink!). 
  I agree that dust can be an issue, but that's what compressed air is for.  :)
From nobody at spamcop.net  Tue Jan 18 15:31:09 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue Jan 18 15:30:09 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net> <csjrcl$mfg$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csjrip$mla$1@news.spamcop.net>

Borgholio wrote:
>
> Look at my case for a good example of airflow:
>
> http://www.storymindmedia.com/borgholio/images/case.jpg
>
> http://www.storymindmedia.com/borgholio/images/case1.jpg
>
> http://www.storymindmedia.com/borgholio/images/case2.jpg

I don't see any airflow, I see a bunch of geeky green lights ;-)

>
> My case has a HUGE front grill, that lets air flow past the hard
> drives (you can see their silouhettes) and across every part of the
> motherboard (chipset, cpu, video card, etc...).  I have a total of 5
> fans...two in the power supply, the two on the back wall, and one in
> the top panel (not pictured).

Which one blow in and which ones exhaust?


From borgholio at storymind.com  Tue Jan 18 12:42:36 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Tue Jan 18 15:45:09 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
In-Reply-To: <csjrip$mla$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net> <csjrcl$mfg$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csjrip$mla$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csjsbm$n3l$1@news.spamcop.net>

Indigo wrote:

> 
> 
> I don't see any airflow, I see a bunch of geeky green lights ;-)

Oh ha ha.


> 
> 
> Which one blow in and which ones exhaust?
> 
> 

They're all exhaust, and that's the point.  :)  Since I have such a large 
front grill, the airflow from front to rear is excellent.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Tue Jan 18 15:29:07 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 18:30:45 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:

> It might by *easier* but it's not the correct thermal gradient you want. A
> higher (but hotter) air flow rate is not necessarily better than lower (but
> colder) air flow rate, but then again it all depends on the internal
> configuration. Plus pushing air into the case gives the case a higher
> internal pressure than the ambient surroundings and should help keep dust
> out.

Oddly enough, when I reversed the fan on the still-running system (and 
got my finger stuck in the blades, and causing "fan-not-turning" alarms 
in addition to my yelping) to blow air into the case rather than suck it 
out, case temperatures increased to 105°F+. I said "Oh, crap!" and 
reversed the flow before it got much hotter.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From bud at telus.net  Tue Jan 18 16:53:59 2005
From: bud at telus.net (Bud)
Date: Tue Jan 18 19:55:17 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] MIDI into OE
Message-ID: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>

Here's a change of pace. I've been trying to put a small music MIDI file in 
my outgoing mail (OE) so that when my recipient opens
his/her mail the MIDI will trigger without having to open it as an 
attachment. In other words, open the mail and music plays. Don't ask me why 
I want to do this; it's a long story.
Bud

-- 
Golf requires no athletic ability,
hence, not a sport.
http://www.freewebs.com/budzone/ 


From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Wed Jan 19 01:28:48 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Tue Jan 18 20:30:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: MIDI into OE
References: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95E2B1E949E80blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 18 Jan 2005 Bud entered spamcop.geeks and left
news:cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net: 

> Here's a change of pace. I've been trying to put a small music MIDI
> file in my outgoing mail (OE) so that when my recipient opens
> his/her mail the MIDI will trigger without having to open it as an 
> attachment. In other words, open the mail and music plays. Don't ask
> me why I want to do this; it's a long story.
> Bud
> 

I think you can, but not sure how to do it in OE, and it's been awhile, so 
I forget exactly how.

You have to make an HTML file called, let's say, "midi-template.htm"

<!-- HTML Code Below -->

<html>
<head>
<title>Midi Template</title>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" 
  content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
</head>
<body>
<p>
Midi Template
</p>
<embed
  src="cid:file:///c:\music\midi\email_midi.mid"
  type="audio/midi"
  height="15"
  width="144"
  controls="smallconsole"
  autostart="true"
  Controls="controls"
  AutoSize="1">
</embed>
</body>
</html>

<!-- End HTML Code -->

Edit the src path to your actual midi file, make sure you leave in the 
"cid:file:///" part or it won't send the midi file in the eMail.
Compose a new eMail and attach the htm file, save it as a Template.
Then you can open the template and add whatever text or images you want.

I'm not sure if this is exactly right, I have a template archived away 
somewhere that works, I'm not sure the "cid" part is exactly right.
In fact it seems like there is some other attribute that needs to be added. 
Well you can try that and see if the midi is attached to the message when 
you send it to yourself.
-- 
| Ric
|
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Wed Jan 19 03:18:16 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Tue Jan 18 22:20:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: MIDI into OE
References: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95E2B1E949E80blammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <Xns95E2C47839B54blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 18 Jan 2005 Blammo entered spamcop.geeks and left
news:Xns95E2B1E949E80blammo@216.154.195.61: 

> In fact it seems like there is some other attribute that needs to be
> added. 

I think I found it here.
  src="file:///c:\music\midi\email_midi.mid"
  localdata="audio/midi file:///c:\music\midi\email_midi.mid"

So I'll correct the HTML code, and if I find it's still wrong I'll correct 
it again. But I think this is right.

<!-- HTML Code Below -->

<html>
<head>
<title>Midi Template</title>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" 
  content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
</head>
<body>
<p>
Midi Template
</p>
<embed
  src="file:///c:\music\midi\email_midi.mid"
  localdata="audio/midi file:///c:\music\midi\email_midi.mid"
  type="audio/midi"
  height="15"
  width="144"
  controls="smallconsole"
  autostart="true"
  Controls="controls"
  AutoSize="1">
</embed>
</body>
</html>

<!-- End HTML Code -->



-- 
| Ric
|
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Wed Jan 19 03:27:47 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Tue Jan 18 22:30:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: MIDI into OE
References: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95E2B1E949E80blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<Xns95E2C47839B54blammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <Xns95E2C615A8BDEblammo@216.154.195.61>

On 18 Jan 2005 Blammo entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:Xns95E2C47839B54blammo@216.154.195.61:

>   src="file:///c:\music\midi\email_midi.mid"
>   localdata="audio/midi file:///c:\music\midi\email_midi.mid"
> 

Oh, I just thought of something, since I don't use spaces in filenames/ 
folders, you might have to encode any spaces if it don't work.
So if your midi is in
"c:\my music\email-midi.mid"

you need to write the HTML code as

  src="file:///c:\my%20music\email-midi.mid"
  localdata="audio/midi file:///c:\my%20music\email-midi.mid"

You can check that the path is correct by pasting the src value into your 
browser location/ address box.
-- 
| Ric
|
From nobody at devnull.spamcop.net  Tue Jan 18 22:46:03 2005
From: nobody at devnull.spamcop.net (WazoO)
Date: Tue Jan 18 23:50:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: MIDI into OE
References: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cskomc$8ha$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Bud" <bud@telus.net> wrote in message news:cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net...
> Here's a change of pace. I've been trying to put a small music MIDI file
in
> my outgoing mail (OE) so that when my recipient opens
> his/her mail the MIDI will trigger without having to open it as an
> attachment. In other words, open the mail and music plays. Don't ask me
why
> I want to do this; it's a long story.

news://msnews.microsoft.com/  look for a newsgroup with the
keyword "stationary" .. or snag the newsgroup for the
particular version of OE you're concerned with (yours,
the recipient's, .... do you even have an idea if the recipient
allows this kind of e-mail to arrive, much less "play" ??)


From eddie at eddie.web  Wed Jan 19 01:00:51 2005
From: eddie at eddie.web (eddie)
Date: Wed Jan 19 01:05:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Too complicated - - do this
References: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.19.06.00.50.416000@eddie.web>

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:53:59 -0800, Bud scratched out the following:

> Here's a change of pace. I've been trying to put a small music MIDI file
> in my outgoing mail (OE) so that when my recipient opens his/her mail the
> MIDI will trigger without having to open it as an attachment. In other
> words, open the mail and music plays. Don't ask me why I want to do this;
> it's a long story. Bud

All you have to do is create a new message and then select
Format->Background->Sound
You can use midi, wav and most any sound.
When the recipient opens the email, the sound will play

No scripts - it's trivial.
From bud at telus.net  Tue Jan 18 22:06:26 2005
From: bud at telus.net (Bud)
Date: Wed Jan 19 01:10:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: MIDI into OE
References: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95E2B1E949E80blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<Xns95E2C47839B54blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<Xns95E2C615A8BDEblammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <csktd8$bef$1@news.spamcop.net>





"Blammo" <ric.gates@bigsleep.org> wrote in message 
news:Xns95E2C615A8BDEblammo@216.154.195.61...
> On 18 Jan 2005 Blammo entered spamcop.geeks and left
> news:Xns95E2C47839B54blammo@216.154.195.61:
>
>>   src="file:///c:\music\midi\email_midi.mid"
>>   localdata="audio/midi file:///c:\music\midi\email_midi.mid"
>>
>
> Oh, I just thought of something, since I don't use spaces in filenames/
> folders, you might have to encode any spaces if it don't work.
> So if your midi is in
> "c:\my music\email-midi.mid"
>
> you need to write the HTML code as
>
>  src="file:///c:\my%20music\email-midi.mid"
>  localdata="audio/midi file:///c:\my%20music\email-midi.mid"
>
> You can check that the path is correct by pasting the src value into your
> browser location/ address box.
> -- 
> | Ric
>

Thanks Ric I'm working on it now. It's a bit more challenging than inserting
it into a web page.
Bud


From bud at telus.net  Tue Jan 18 23:06:34 2005
From: bud at telus.net (Bud)
Date: Wed Jan 19 02:10:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Too complicated - - do this
References: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.19.06.00.50.416000@eddie.web>
Message-ID: <csl0tu$d8m$1@news.spamcop.net>


"eddie" <eddie@eddie.web> wrote in message 
news:pan.2005.01.19.06.00.50.416000@eddie.web...
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:53:59 -0800, Bud scratched out the following:
>
>> Here's a change of pace. I've been trying to put a small music MIDI file
>> in my outgoing mail (OE) so that when my recipient opens his/her mail the
>> MIDI will trigger without having to open it as an attachment. In other
>> words, open the mail and music plays. Don't ask me why I want to do this;
>> it's a long story. Bud
>
> All you have to do is create a new message and then select
> Format->Background->Sound
> You can use midi, wav and most any sound.
> When the recipient opens the email, the sound will play
>
> No scripts - it's trivial.

Jesus! It works.
Thanks
Bud 


From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Wed Jan 19 09:51:14 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Wed Jan 19 04:55:48 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Too complicated - - do this
References: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.19.06.00.50.416000@eddie.web>
Message-ID: <Xns95E312F48FB54blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 18 Jan 2005 eddie entered spamcop.geeks and left
news:pan.2005.01.19.06.00.50.416000@eddie.web: 

> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:53:59 -0800, Bud scratched out the following:
> 
>> Here's a change of pace. I've been trying to put a small music MIDI
>> file in my outgoing mail (OE) so that when my recipient opens his/her
>> mail the MIDI will trigger without having to open it as an
>> attachment. In other words, open the mail and music plays. Don't ask
>> me why I want to do this; it's a long story. Bud
> 
> All you have to do is create a new message and then select
> Format->Background->Sound
> You can use midi, wav and most any sound.
> When the recipient opens the email, the sound will play
> 
> No scripts - it's trivial.

Backgroundsound only works in IE, and you can't turn it off. There's no 
volume controls or nothing, I wouldn't use it.
There's no easy way because no one (that is IE | Netscape) wants to do it 
the right way, using the OBJECT tag. No plugins even use common control 
commands.

-- 
| Ric
|
From nobody at devnll.spamcop.net  Wed Jan 19 09:57:11 2005
From: nobody at devnll.spamcop.net (Spamvireslayer)
Date: Wed Jan 19 10:00:18 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Word Tools menu corrupted
References: <csemue$jnk$1@news.spamcop.net> <csfj3i$4pd$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<csgh73$lqd$1@news.spamcop.net> <csib7a$pvh$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cslsi4$rm4$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Rick Carlton" <rcarlton@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:csib7a$pvh$1@news.spamcop.net...
>
> Aw man....
>
> I believe there was also a "Repair" option for Office 2000 and its apps.
>   Add/Remove-->Offiice2000-->Remove/Repair

Sadly, ME doesn't have that option......  While I was renaming my old template and
copying my new one into the template directory, the whole machine hung.  From that
point on it was a solid four hours of attempting to even boot to safe mode, if I
reset the scandisk would start and lock everything up, if I tried to boot to safe
mode I got the BSOD saying "windows protection fault, system halted".  I tried to get
to safe mode to use the Restore feature, THAT locked up, so I just kept rebooting
from the CD to get to safe mode so I could shut down properly.  That worked, things
are working properly now and no hint of a problem.  I'm finding that my memory is
maxed out at some paltry amount, maybe 256, and if I have too many windows open it
locks up - that's when i get into trouble.
>
> Dumb question, but... the one MailMerge menu entry that has a
> subordinate entry - is it supposed to be there?

Yes, Mail Merge is part of the Tool menu.  I think my normal template was corrupted,
perhaps by something like what happened when it locks up and I have to reset.  I have
replaced it with my template from work (same thing) and it now is fixed, one entry on
the menu for mail merge.  Probably could have done that from the get go....


From nobody at spamcop.net  Wed Jan 19 15:00:30 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed Jan 19 15:00:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
>>
> Oddly enough, when I reversed the fan on the still-running system (and
> got my finger stuck in the blades, and causing "fan-not-turning"
> alarms in addition to my yelping) to blow air into the case rather
> than suck it out, case temperatures increased to 105°F+. I said "Oh,
> crap!" and reversed the flow before it got much hotter.

Transient event! Not a valid data point! ( you need to start cold/off and
run it both ways to a steady state to be sure, you doofus ;-)


From eddie at eddie.web  Wed Jan 19 21:19:25 2005
From: eddie at eddie.web (eddie)
Date: Wed Jan 19 21:20:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Too complicated - - do this
References: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.19.06.00.50.416000@eddie.web>
	<Xns95E312F48FB54blammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.20.02.19.24.926000@eddie.web>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:51:14 +0000, Blammo scratched out the following:

snip
> Backgroundsound only works in IE, and you can't turn it off. There's no
> volume controls or nothing, I wouldn't use it. There's no easy way because
> no one (that is IE | Netscape) wants to do it the right way, using the
> OBJECT tag. No plugins even use common control commands.

Yes I use that on my music websites, but the original question involved IE
mail, which I correctly assumed to be Outlook Express, since Bud wrote
that it worked.
BTW, it works when the receive client is Outlook or Outlook Express and
may work for other clients - I don't know. I never looked at the actual
mechanism or engine MS used to BG the sound in OE. When I discovered it it
was a complete surprise.
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Thu Jan 20 02:58:23 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Wed Jan 19 22:00:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Too complicated - - do this
References: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.19.06.00.50.416000@eddie.web>
	<Xns95E312F48FB54blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pan.2005.01.20.02.19.24.926000@eddie.web>
Message-ID: <Xns95E3C11937FCblammo@216.154.195.61>

On 19 Jan 2005 eddie entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:pan.2005.01.20.02.19.24.926000@eddie.web:

> but the original question involved IE
> mail, which I correctly assumed to be Outlook Express, since Bud wrote
> that it worked.

He did say OE, but what does that have to do with the recipient?
I suggested a method that will work in many more clients than bgsound will.
I have seen your suggestion used, and I'm just pointing out the problems 
with it. 

BTW, it's pretty easy to attach a midi file inline in a message just by 
copying it and pasting it into the message. They just have to click the 
link to play it.
-- 
| Ric
|
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Thu Jan 20 03:11:10 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Wed Jan 19 22:15:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: panix.com was hijacked
References: <pan.2005.01.17.17.45.54.63000@eddie.web>
	<pete+usenet-728C20.14175417012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<responseguard-638051.18411117012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<pan.2005.01.18.03.58.26.464000@eddie.web> <csj6sr$90d$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95E3C34386F4blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 18 Jan 2005 User entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:csj6sr$90d$1@news.spamcop.net:

> My 18 domains have been reg'd with Melbourne for quite some time. I get
> an email to the effect that unless I reply othewise, the domain will be
> automagically renewed.
> 

They are talking about domain transfer, not renewal.

-- 
| Ric
|
From bud at telus.net  Wed Jan 19 21:05:19 2005
From: bud at telus.net (Bud)
Date: Thu Jan 20 00:10:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Too complicated - - do this
References: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.19.06.00.50.416000@eddie.web>
	<Xns95E312F48FB54blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pan.2005.01.20.02.19.24.926000@eddie.web>
	<Xns95E3C11937FCblammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <csne6j$rjr$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Blammo" <ric.gates@bigsleep.org> wrote in message 
news:Xns95E3C11937FCblammo@216.154.195.61...
> On 19 Jan 2005 eddie entered spamcop.geeks and left
> news:pan.2005.01.20.02.19.24.926000@eddie.web:
>
>> but the original question involved IE
>> mail, which I correctly assumed to be Outlook Express, since Bud wrote
>> that it worked.
>
> He did say OE, but what does that have to do with the recipient?
> I suggested a method that will work in many more clients than bgsound 
> will.
> I have seen your suggestion used, and I'm just pointing out the problems
> with it.
>
> BTW, it's pretty easy to attach a midi file inline in a message just by
> copying it and pasting it into the message. They just have to click the
> link to play it.
> -- 
> | Ric

Ya', it was OE that I originally was asking for help with. After reading the 
responses and feeling a little silly for not having seen the
Format/Background/Sound feature which works fine except as pointed out it is 
'in your face' when opened but in my case it will be used selectively. I did 
notice that  Netscape/Thunderbird doesn't have that ability. My son and I 
are working on the HTML (Ric).
I appreciate the responses.
Bud 


From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Thu Jan 20 07:20:19 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Thu Jan 20 02:25:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Too complicated - - do this
References: <cskb38$bs$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.19.06.00.50.416000@eddie.web>
	<Xns95E312F48FB54blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pan.2005.01.20.02.19.24.926000@eddie.web>
	<Xns95E3C11937FCblammo@216.154.195.61> <csne6j$rjr$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95E3ED7FD321Bblammo@216.154.195.61>

On 19 Jan 2005 Bud entered spamcop.geeks and left
news:csne6j$rjr$1@news.spamcop.net: 

> I did notice that  Netscape/Thunderbird doesn't have that ability. My
> son and I are working on the HTML (Ric).

I already tried it in Mozilla, actually it's really easy.
>From the menu...

Insert... HTML

Then paste the embed code

<embed 
  src="file:///c:\midi.mid"
  localdata="audio/midi file:///c:\midi.mid"
  type="audio/midi"
  height="30"
  width="144"
  autostart="true">

Not sure about menu location in Thunderbird, it's there somewhere.
But it doesn't work.
This worked great in Netscape Communicator, but Mozilla won't attach the 
file. Maybe there's an extension that makes it work (it CAN work, it just 
don't).

I did get it to work, but I had to edit the raw eMail...
You can copy the midi file and paste it into the message, works great, it 
creates a link and attaches the file. And you can edit the link to 
something like "click to play midi".
Then paste in the HTML code for the embed tag I showed above,
click File > Send Later.
Then open the "Unsent Messages" file in a text editor and copy the link 
href which looks something like
 <a href="cid:part1.08000402.01010503@address.com">
replace the "file:///.." part in the embed tag with the "cid:..." part.
Save it then send the message.

Yea, I know that's a pain and I don't expect anyone to do it that way.

Also...

My Netscape Communicator insisted on type="audio/midi" and Mozilla used 
type="audio/mid", so I had to change that.

Plugins in Mail/News are disabled by default in Mozilla/Thunderbird.

Mozilla doesn't come with an audio plugin, I think Netscape 7.2 does 
(Beatnik?).

I'm using the Yamaha MidPlug plugin and it won't play midis in eMails for 
some reason. It plays midis on web pages just fine. I'm going to try this 
with Flash and see if it works, just to make sure it's the Yamaha plugin 
that is the problem. Or maybe Quicktime will work for midis.

I should probably give the code for using OBJECT, I know it works but I 
don't use it because I could never get it to work right in Opera.
oh well, here it is anyway.

<object
  data="file:///c:\midi.mid"
  localdata="audio/midi file:///c:\midi.mid"
  type="audio/midi"
  width="144"
  height="30">
  <param name="autostart" value="true">
</object>

I tested both EMBED and OBJECT in Netscape 4.x, I actually had both in the 
same eMail, worked fine. Oh, for Communicator, when creating the message, I 
could only add one <tag> at a time, so Object took three "insert Tag"s.
The same message worked in Mozilla (my plugin don't work), and I'm sure 
both work in OE. I don't think Object will work in Web TV, don't know about 
MSN Tv, not sure about the latest Opera (but does anyone use Opera Mail?). 
Should work in Eudora, but probably need the IE engine enabled.

Fun stuff ;-)
-- 
| Ric
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Thu Jan 20 13:01:59 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Thu Jan 20 16:05:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:

> Transient event! Not a valid data point! ( you need to start cold/off and
> run it both ways to a steady state to be sure, you doofus ;-)

*laughs* But that requires...*gasp*...DOWNTIME!

I'm considering the Koolance PC2-601BLW, Blue[1] case.

Not only does it Look Cool(tm)[2], but it also has substantial cooling 
capacity due to the water-cooled system that's built into the case. I 
could simply disassemble my present case, take out the motherboard, 
disks, power supply, etc., throw them into this case, run the 
appropriate tubing and cooler blocks to my CPU and graphics card, and 
put one or two 80mm fans in the back to keep the ambient temperature 
down for things like the air-cooled Northbridge, hard disks, RAM, etc.

>From what I've heard from several people, Koolance systems are 
remarkably good at keeping systems cool, don't require much more power 
(always a plus), are very quiet, etc. They're a little pricier than one 
would get with a similar air-cooled-only case, but there are quite a few 
air-cooled cases of the same size that cost similar amounts.

Perhaps if I have any money after the gun show this weekend (looking to 
get some more ammo on the cheap and possibly an SKS) I'll look into 
getting it. :)

[1] 
<http://www.koolance.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=28_43&products_id=90
>
[2] Not terribly important to me, but evidently my gamer friends would 
ooh and ahh over it, and that might result in me getting free food. 
That's always a plus.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From borgholio at storymind.com  Thu Jan 20 13:12:52 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Thu Jan 20 16:15:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <csp6rq$unv$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:

> 
> I'm considering the Koolance PC2-601BLW, Blue[1] case.
> 
> Not only does it Look Cool(tm)[2], but it also has substantial cooling 
> capacity due to the water-cooled system that's built into the case. 

Be on the lookout for potential leaks.  Also be prepared to put more time 
into cleaning and maintaining a water-cooling system.

> 
> Perhaps if I have any money after the gun show this weekend (looking to 
> get some more ammo on the cheap and possibly an SKS) I'll look into 
> getting it. :)
> 

Do me a favor and get me some prices on pump-action shotguns?  :)
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Thu Jan 20 14:33:55 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Thu Jan 20 17:35:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csp6rq$unv$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-3BAFAF.14335420012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <csp6rq$unv$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com> wrote:

> Be on the lookout for potential leaks.  Also be prepared to put more time 
> into cleaning and maintaining a water-cooling system.

Evidently Koolance does some uber-pressure testing on their pumps, 
tubing and whatnot.

Also, I found a good deal for the Koolance EXOS black acrylic external 
water-cooling system on eBay. Evidently one just puts some strips of 
adhesive-backed velcro on the computer and on the EXOS and it prevents 
it from slipping off the top of the case. The coolant lines go in 
through a PCI card slot.

I could put the coolers on the CPU and graphics card chip (though it 
would seem that the graphics card coolers require 1/4" tubing instead of 
3/8", and since it's all in series it'd reduce the flow to the CPU as 
well -- maybe parallel cooling would be in order), and possibly one on 
the hard disk and northbridge. The 80mm fan would remain turning just to 
cool the ambient temperature generated by the various minor electronic 
parts on the motherboard and so forth.

Oh, and it'd Look Neat(tm) too. :-P

> Do me a favor and get me some prices on pump-action shotguns?  :)

Any particular model? I have the Mossberg 500 "Persuader", and I love it.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From borgholio at storymind.com  Thu Jan 20 14:39:18 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Thu Jan 20 17:40:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-3BAFAF.14335420012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csp6rq$unv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-3BAFAF.14335420012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <cspbts$2tg$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> In article <csp6rq$unv$1@news.spamcop.net>,
>  Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Be on the lookout for potential leaks.  Also be prepared to put more time 
>>into cleaning and maintaining a water-cooling system.
> 
> 
> Evidently Koolance does some uber-pressure testing on their pumps, 
> tubing and whatnot.

Well YOU still have to connect the tubes together.  :)  That's where most 
leaks occur.

> 
> Also, I found a good deal for the Koolance EXOS black acrylic external 
> water-cooling system on eBay. Evidently one just puts some strips of 
> adhesive-backed velcro on the computer and on the EXOS and it prevents 
> it from slipping off the top of the case. The coolant lines go in 
> through a PCI card slot.
> 
> I could put the coolers on the CPU and graphics card chip (though it 
> would seem that the graphics card coolers require 1/4" tubing instead of 
> 3/8", and since it's all in series it'd reduce the flow to the CPU as 
> well -- maybe parallel cooling would be in order), and possibly one on 
> the hard disk and northbridge. The 80mm fan would remain turning just to 
> cool the ambient temperature generated by the various minor electronic 
> parts on the motherboard and so forth.
> 
> Oh, and it'd Look Neat(tm) too. :-P

That setup would work, but you don't need a parallel system unless you 
overclock like a madman.

> 
> 
>>Do me a favor and get me some prices on pump-action shotguns?  :)
> 
> 
> Any particular model? I have the Mossberg 500 "Persuader", and I love it.
> 

Something not too expensive and good for home defense.  I'm not too picky. 
It doesn't even have to be pump-action, to be honest.  But the "Cha-CHACK" 
sound has a nice psychological effect.  :)
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Thu Jan 20 15:58:21 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Thu Jan 20 19:00:18 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csp6rq$unv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-3BAFAF.14335420012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cspbts$2tg$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-38D8E4.15582120012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <cspbts$2tg$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com> wrote:

> Well YOU still have to connect the tubes together.  :)  That's where most 
> leaks occur.

Very true.

> That setup would work, but you don't need a parallel system unless you 
> overclock like a madman.

True, and water can absorb a substantial amount of heat energy before 
actually increasing in temperature, so it likely wouldn't cause a 
problem anyway.

I may overclock a little, but not enough to really cause problems. :)

> Something not too expensive and good for home defense.  I'm not too picky. 
> It doesn't even have to be pump-action, to be honest.  But the "Cha-CHACK" 
> sound has a nice psychological effect.  :)

I'd say your choices boil down to a Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500 
or 590. Cops seem to like the Remington, while the military uses Mossy 
590's.

I'm not sure of the difference, if any, between the 500 and the 590. I 
got mine for a few hundred bucks, and it works just fine. 7+1 tubular 
magazine, good balance, not too heavy, good recoil absorption (though it 
will, of course, tenderize your shoulder if you shoot it enough), etc. 
Both the Remington and Mossbergs excel at quality, though the Remington 
is made from steel, as opposed to the Mossberg's aluminum receiver. Not 
really a big deal unless you're using it as a club, in which case it's 
still doing it's job for self-defense, no? :)

I choose the Mossberg 500 because the safety switch is mounted on the 
top of the receiver and is actuated by the thumb, rather than the 
trigger finger (the Remington safety is a little push-button in the 
trigger guard). This makes it much easier for me to engage or disengage 
the safety, as I'm left-handed.

Rent 'em and see is probably the best advice I can give. :)

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From nobody at spamcop.net  Thu Jan 20 19:10:52 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Thu Jan 20 19:10:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <csph6i$68b$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> In article <csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>,
>  "Indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> Transient event! Not a valid data point! ( you need to start
>> cold/off and run it both ways to a steady state to be sure, you
>> doofus ;-)
>
> *laughs* But that requires...*gasp*...DOWNTIME!
>
> I'm considering the Koolance PC2-601BLW, Blue[1] case.
>
> Not only does it Look Cool(tm)[2], but it also has substantial cooling
> capacity due to the water-cooled system that's built into the case.

I can't believe you truly need such high-tech cooling.....you're on a
budget, remember? ;-) The risk of corrosion and leaks would really put me
off to water cooling unless there were no other choice.

P.S. No, you don't need frickin' parallel lines, fer chrissakes! Let's make
some more potential leak spots! Just run the inlet to the CPU cooler first
(if you insist on going this route).


From borgholio at storymind.com  Thu Jan 20 16:11:42 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Thu Jan 20 19:15:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-38D8E4.15582120012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csp6rq$unv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-3BAFAF.14335420012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cspbts$2tg$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-38D8E4.15582120012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <csphb3$66c$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:

> 
> True, and water can absorb a substantial amount of heat energy before 
> actually increasing in temperature, so it likely wouldn't cause a 
> problem anyway.

If I recall, it's something like 100 times the latent heat capacity of air.


> 
> I'd say your choices boil down to a Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500 
> or 590. Cops seem to like the Remington, while the military uses Mossy 
> 590's.
> 
> I'm not sure of the difference, if any, between the 500 and the 590. I 
> got mine for a few hundred bucks, and it works just fine. 7+1 tubular 
> magazine, good balance, not too heavy, good recoil absorption (though it 
> will, of course, tenderize your shoulder if you shoot it enough), etc. 
> Both the Remington and Mossbergs excel at quality, though the Remington 
> is made from steel, as opposed to the Mossberg's aluminum receiver. Not 
> really a big deal unless you're using it as a club, in which case it's 
> still doing it's job for self-defense, no? :)

LOL about the club...although I suppose it'd work quite well.  :)

> 
> I choose the Mossberg 500 because the safety switch is mounted on the 
> top of the receiver and is actuated by the thumb, rather than the 
> trigger finger (the Remington safety is a little push-button in the 
> trigger guard). This makes it much easier for me to engage or disengage 
> the safety, as I'm left-handed.
> 
> Rent 'em and see is probably the best advice I can give. :)
> 

Where could I rent a shotgun?
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Thu Jan 20 21:55:35 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Fri Jan 21 01:00:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csph6i$68b$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-E958DF.21553520012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <csph6i$68b$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:

> I can't believe you truly need such high-tech cooling.....you're on a
> budget, remember? ;-) The risk of corrosion and leaks would really put me
> off to water cooling unless there were no other choice.

*laughs* Indeed.

I'd also like to see the look on other psuedo-geeks/gamers when I bring 
my rather plain looking case over to a LAN party or something. Normal 
looking case with a bit of velcro. Hmm. Oh well.

Then I go out to the car and bring in the three-fan radiator unit and 
velcro it to the top of the computer. :)

It'd also give me quite a bit more cooling capacity to play around with 
overclocking. :)

Yes, I suppose I /could/ just buy a slightly better air-cooled case, put 
some more fans on it, etc. But that's FAR too easy a solution.

Oh, and you can bet that I'm going to rig up all the coolant lines, fill 
the system with coolant and run it for a day or so without being 
attached to anything to ensure that it is indeed in good working order 
and not leaking. I'm not taking any risks with my computer. Nosireebob.

> P.S. No, you don't need frickin' parallel lines, fer chrissakes! Let's make
> some more potential leak spots! Just run the inlet to the CPU cooler first
> (if you insist on going this route).

Hehe. I know, I know. I'm just being nit-picky.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Thu Jan 20 21:58:29 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Fri Jan 21 01:00:11 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csp6rq$unv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-3BAFAF.14335420012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cspbts$2tg$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-38D8E4.15582120012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csphb3$66c$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-3BB0EA.21582920012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <csphb3$66c$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com> wrote:

> LOL about the club...although I suppose it'd work quite well.  :)

Well, it would work as a club, but if you really need a club, a baseball 
bat would be far more suitable.

Shotguns make bad clubs.

> > Rent 'em and see is probably the best advice I can give. :)
> 
> Where could I rent a shotgun?

Ask your local range. The local pistol range near me rents a shotgun, 
but it's a Winchester (with no recoil pad, 5-shot magazine, longer 
barrel [not really balanced for me], and a brutal recoil). Try asking 
around at your local pistol ranges -- sometimes rifle ranges will rent 
them, but shotguns aren't accurate at long range (with the exception of 
slugs, which can be accurate out to about a hundred yards) so they're 
not as common there, at least in my experience.

Local ranges (or gun shops with attached indoor ranges) can be immensely 
helpful.

Where do you live again?

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From borgholio at storymind.com  Thu Jan 20 22:05:02 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Fri Jan 21 01:05:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-3BB0EA.21582920012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csp6rq$unv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-3BAFAF.14335420012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cspbts$2tg$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-38D8E4.15582120012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csphb3$66c$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-3BB0EA.21582920012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <csq61h$j45$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:

> 
> Where do you live again?
> 

Burbank.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Thu Jan 20 22:15:47 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Fri Jan 21 01:20:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csp6rq$unv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-3BAFAF.14335420012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cspbts$2tg$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-38D8E4.15582120012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csphb3$66c$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-3BB0EA.21582920012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csq61h$j45$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-1C1759.22154720012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <csq61h$j45$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com> wrote:

> Burbank.

Hmm. I don't know how gun (un)friendly Burbank is, but I'm sure there's 
a few gun shops/ranges in your phone book.

I'd first suggest going into a shop, looking around at what they have, 
hefting various shotguns, asking permission to dry-fire[1], go through 
all the normal motions with it, etc. Try out all the switches, knobs, 
pumps, etc. on the different ones. See which one is comfortable for you, 
then see if the local range happens to rent those weapons.

[1] Dry-firing can damage some weapons.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From nobody at spamcop.net  Fri Jan 21 13:33:17 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri Jan 21 13:35:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csp6rq$unv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-3BAFAF.14335420012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cspbts$2tg$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-38D8E4.15582120012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csphb3$66c$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csrhpi$dad$1@news.spamcop.net>

Borgholio wrote:
> Pete Stephenson wrote:
>
>>
>> True, and water can absorb a substantial amount of heat energy before
>> actually increasing in temperature, so it likely wouldn't cause a
>> problem anyway.
>
> If I recall, it's something like 100 times the latent heat capacity
> of air.

And conductive cooling is way more efficient than convective cooling to
boot. More like a 500-1000% increase in efficiency (flow rate vs. cooling
capacity).


From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Fri Jan 21 13:46:45 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Fri Jan 21 16:50:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8228C4.14105517012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csjqhq$ltq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-58B5AF.15290718012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csme58$77j$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-706062.13015920012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csp6rq$unv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-3BAFAF.14335420012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cspbts$2tg$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-38D8E4.15582120012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csphb3$66c$1@news.spamcop.net> <csrhpi$dad$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-BAFD22.13464521012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <csrhpi$dad$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:

> And conductive cooling is way more efficient than convective cooling to
> boot. More like a 500-1000% increase in efficiency (flow rate vs. cooling
> capacity).

Indeed.

I'll be sure to get before-and-after temperatures and pictures (if I can 
find a camera) of the setup, of me working on it, of me hurting myself 
in the process, me swearing and holding my finger after it gets caught 
in the fan, etc.

This should be an interesting project.

Yes, I get very bored easily. I require actually /doing/ stuff with my 
hands to be satisfied. Unfortunately, this tends to have a somewhat 
negative impact on my wallet. :/

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From nobody at spamcop.net  Sat Jan 22 19:32:53 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (RW)
Date: Sat Jan 22 20:35:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csfde9$18t$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A2A24D.23342416012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <csuus4$gk3$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Pete Stephenson" <pete+usenet@heypete.com> wrote in message 
news:pete+usenet-A2A24D.23342416012005@news.cesmail.net...
> In article <csfde9$18t$1@news.spamcop.net>, "RW" <nobody@spamcop.net>
> wrote:

>> My current case with the P4 has two fans on the front, one on the back, 
>> one
>> on the PS, one on the video card and one on the CPU, which is ducted
>> directly to the side panel.  I make sure I vacuum all the vents at least
>> once a month.
>
> Yeowch. :)

Allergic to vacuums?  ;-)

Richard 


From nobody at spamcop.net  Sat Jan 22 19:38:32 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (RW)
Date: Sat Jan 22 20:40:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <csuv6l$gn9$1@news.spamcop.net>

"Indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote in message 
news:csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net...

> My (thermal engineer) opinion is that you should be using that fan mount 
> on
> the back of the case to blow air *into* the case and over the MoBo, not
> exhausting air *out* of it. More efficient that way due to pressure drops
> and such, and you're blowing cool air into the box instead of pulling 
> hotter
> internal air over the Mobo. You could play with reversing the fan and 
> seeing
> if it makes a difference in CPU and case temps.

Which is the way I always thought too, until I was proven wrong.  Using fans 
to exhaust the air means you have room temperature air coming into the case 
from many different points, spreading the cooling out more evenly and under 
less pressure so it spreads through the case better.  Downside is of course 
dust around every inlet point.

Richard 


From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sat Jan 22 17:40:40 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sat Jan 22 20:45:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csfde9$18t$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A2A24D.23342416012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csuus4$gk3$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-8094FD.17404022012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <csuus4$gk3$1@news.spamcop.net>, "RW" <nobody@spamcop.net> 
wrote:

> Allergic to vacuums?  ;-)

*looks around the clutter of my room*

Er...you could say that. :)

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From nobody at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 23 11:44:16 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun Jan 23 11:45:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csgusb$v1a$1@news.spamcop.net> <csuv6l$gn9$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <ct0k50$fng$1@news.spamcop.net>

RW wrote:
>
> Which is the way I always thought too, until I was proven wrong.
> Using fans to exhaust the air means you have room temperature air
> coming into the case from many different points, spreading the
> cooling out more evenly and under less pressure so it spreads through
> the case better.  Downside is of course dust around every inlet point.
>

Yahbut....if you're after point source cooling (like the CPU), I'm (we're)
still correct. My Mobo runs at 17-22 C, I don't need extra cooling there, I
need it on my CPU. I even installed a cardboard left-handed windshifter
inside my case to direct the case fan incoming air directly at the CPU
cooler, it dropped the CPU temps almost 10 C vs. no windshifter or using it
as an exhaust fan (neither of which dropped the CPU temp one iota).


From nobody at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 23 11:48:52 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun Jan 23 11:50:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Might be old news to some, but wasn't to me - Upgrade to PDF reader
	7.0 now!
Message-ID: <ct0kdk$g00$1@news.spamcop.net>

Adobe Reader 6.0 .ETD File Format String Vulnerability

iDEFENSE Security Advisory 12.13.04
www.idefense.com/application/poi/display?id=163&type=vulnerabilities
December 14, 2004

I. BACKGROUND

Adobe Acrobat Reader is a program for viewing Portable Document Format
(PDF) documents. More information is available at the following site:

   http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readermain.html

II. DESCRIPTION

Remote exploitation of a format string vulnerability in version 6.0.2
of Adobe's Reader could allow attackers to execute arbitrary code.

The problem specifically exists in the parsing of .etd files used in
eBook transactions. A .etd file containing a format string in the
'title' or 'baseurl' fields can cause an invalid memory access:

<title>|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|</title>
<baseurl>|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|%p|</baseurl>

This may allow for the execution of arbitrary code.

III. ANALYSIS

Successful exploitation allows an attacker to execute arbitrary code
under the privileges of the local user. Remote exploitation is possible
by sending a specially crafted e-mail and attaching either the
maliciously crafted PDF document or a link to it.

IV. DETECTION

iDEFENSE has confirmed that Adobe Reader version 6.0.2 is vulnerable.
It is suspected that earlier versions of Adobe Reader 6 are also
vulnerable. Adobe Acrobat may also be vulnerable.

V. WORKAROUND

Deleting the following file will prevent exploitation of this
vulnerability:

"C:\Program Files\Adobe\Acrobat 6.0\Reader\plug_ins\eBook.api"

This will not impact reading .PDF files.


--



From devnull at spamcop.net  Sun Jan 23 16:01:47 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Sun Jan 23 16:20:06 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Safe operating temperatures?
References: <pete+usenet-93B056.05180715012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csc2k5$1bl$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-2E4A93.14184515012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cscnhd$dpv$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A96E1C.20553915012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cse7gd$a1f$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-65475B.15251916012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csfde9$18t$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-A2A24D.23342416012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<csuus4$gk3$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-8094FD.17404022012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <ct14au$ptu$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Pete Stephenson"

| > Allergic to vacuums?  ;-)
|
| *looks around the clutter of my room*
|
| Er...you could say that. :)

Perhaps not allergic but has an aversion?


From nobody at devnull.spamcop.net  Sun Jan 23 15:38:54 2005
From: nobody at devnull.spamcop.net (Heidi)
Date: Sun Jan 23 17:45:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] WHY????
Message-ID: <ct19am$stb$2@news.spamcop.net>

WHY am I such a cunt? Because its my motherfucking personality. I am not 
a sweet girl and never have been. There is no WHY.

From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sun Jan 23 23:53:36 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Mon Jan 24 02:55:13 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Hurricane Electric provides BitTorrent Trackers...
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-76C1AD.23533623012005@news.cesmail.net>

Interesting.

I just got an email from Hurricane Electric (my web host) that 
introduces a rather neat new feature -- by simply placing files into a 
folder ("public_torrents"), their web servers will automatically 
generate a BitTorrent file for that file (which can then be distributed 
however one wishes), will act as a tracker for that file, and will seed 
that file (so that it will always be available).

Each customer gets a unique tracker if they so desire, the website for 
which can be customized for that individual customer.

They state that bandwidth consumed (which shouldn't be much) for the 
service won't be billed, though as the service gets more popular, 
they'll put a cap on the number of files their system will seed for 
(though it will track indefinite number of files) at 25. They reserve 
the right to charge for bandwidth consumed in the future if such a need 
arises.

Obviously, distribution of copyrighted works and so forth are a 
violation of their policies and will be promptly terminated. However, 
this could prove quite useful indeed if legitimate companies who host 
with them use BitTorrent to distribute files. I'd be interesting if a 
Linux distribution or other similar site moved their site (or at least 
the "download" section of it) to HE specifically for this reason.

Some brief testing with it seems to indicate excellent performance -- 
I'm maxing out my DSL connection downloading a test file from the 
tracker associated with my account, with only HE being the seeder. This 
is most excellent performance. Since my site lives on one end of a 
burstable 100Mbps connection with obscene amounts of bandwidth available 
to the facility as a whole, major BT-using distribution sites (like a 
Linux distro) would have no problem with failure-to-scale issues.

It's nice to see an excellent protocol like BitTorrent being actively 
developed and implemented for legitimate purposes.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From nobody at nowhere.com.INVALID  Mon Jan 24 01:11:04 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.com.INVALID (GregR)
Date: Mon Jan 24 04:15:46 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] New Worm/Exploit? Port 3444
Message-ID: <ct2e39$kl2$1@news.spamcop.net>

When I checked my IP logger yesterday I found an unusually large number 
of DNS inquires coming from one of my machines. Turns out it was the 
firewall dutifully looking up IP info for a huge number (thousands) of 
connection requests to port 3444 coming from all over the world.  The 
traffic volume was high enough that I couldn't even access anything on 
the Internet from there.

Releasing and renewing the DHCP lease fixed the problem (and got that 
machine on another /16 as well, which may have moved it away from the 
"attack" target - assuming that what I was seeing was actually an attack 
in progress).

Didn't find anything on CERT (or on the various news sites) about a new 
virus outbreak, and a quick Google search didn't yield much either - 
port 3444 is commonly used for something called a "Denali Server", and 
it's also mentioned on the "Project: Email Listener" site 
(http://nest.cs.uiowa.edu/22C178f00/weblog/bfaga/

So absent any other evidence I'm going to chalk it up to either a 
mis-configured router somewhere, or possibly whoever had that particular 
IP before me was running a compromised/trojaned system.

Any other ideas?

-- 

GregR - Another Beemer Biker ...o&o>

I voted for Kerry, it's not my problem.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful,
and so are we. They never stop thinking about
new ways to harm our country and our people,
and neither do we."

George W. Bush
8/5/04
From MikeE at ster.invalid  Mon Jan 24 03:59:13 2005
From: MikeE at ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Date: Mon Jan 24 07:00:24 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: New Worm/Exploit? Port 3444
References: <ct2e39$kl2$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <ct2nrf$r98$1@news.spamcop.net>

GregR wrote:
> So absent any other evidence I'm going to chalk it up to either a
> mis-configured router somewhere, or possibly whoever had that
> particular IP before me was running a compromised/trojaned system.
>
> Any other ideas?

My only other idea is to configure to feed your logfiles into a central
system like MyNetWatchman and/or DShield, so that the 'analysis' of what
is going on can be evaluated and even reported on a larger scale.

The two different programs are different in how and what they do, and
they are both free.

Win clients at DShield http://www.dshield.org/windows_clients.php These
programs will allow you to configure your computer to automatically send
your firewall log submissions to DShield automatically, with no manual
intervention on your part.

MNW http://www.mynetwatchman.com/setup.asp myNetWatchman agents allow
automatic uploading of firewall data from the following operating system
/ firewall combinations.

-- 
Mike Easter
kibitzer, not SC admin

From driehuis.fcnzpbc2005 at playbeing.com  Tue Jan 25 04:45:16 2005
From: driehuis.fcnzpbc2005 at playbeing.com (Bert Driehuis)
Date: Mon Jan 24 22:50:20 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: Hurricane Electric provides BitTorrent Trackers...
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-76C1AD.23533623012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <pete+usenet-76C1AD.23533623012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <ct4fce$4vh$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:

> Obviously, distribution of copyrighted works and so forth are a 
> violation of their policies and will be promptly terminated. However, 
> this could prove quite useful indeed if legitimate companies who host 
> with them use BitTorrent to distribute files. I'd be interesting if a 
> Linux distribution or other similar site moved their site (or at least 
> the "download" section of it) to HE specifically for this reason.

FreeBSD 5.3 was released on many different media -- including 
BitTorrent. I got my copy of the CD's through BitTorrent, decided I 
liked the scheme and left my "download" up indefinitely, and my poor 
ADSL line served up 60GB of it in December alone.

I agree, BitTorrent is cool for distributing OSes. I haven't tracked 
what the verdict is on FreeBSD's part, it's as much an experiment for 
them as it is for the rest of the world.

Back to HE, offering the service is very good from an awareness 
standpoint, but running a tracker is not at all resource intensive. It 
is lawyer intensive if you allow illegal stuff on it. I'm actually 
waiting for an ISP to countersue the MAFIAA over harassment -- there are 
plenty of cases where MAFIAA lawyers went after users whose content is 
perfectly in order but happened to match the search string the vultures 
were using.

I thoroughly enjoy much of the old stuff on the archive.org film 
archive, which would be a prime candidate for BitTorrenting (if they 
haven't already, it's been a while since I went to the the archive).

Personal opinion yadda yadda yadda, none of the the above is intended to 
negatively reflect on the highly specialized craft of legal defense, 
yadda yadda yadda.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Mon Jan 24 20:43:35 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Mon Jan 24 23:45:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: Hurricane Electric provides BitTorrent Trackers...
References: <pete+usenet-76C1AD.23533623012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ct4fce$4vh$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-09B483.20433524012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <ct4fce$4vh$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 Bert Driehuis <driehuis.fcnzpbc2005@playbeing.com> wrote:

> FreeBSD 5.3 was released on many different media -- including 
> BitTorrent. I got my copy of the CD's through BitTorrent, decided I 
> liked the scheme and left my "download" up indefinitely, and my poor 
> ADSL line served up 60GB of it in December alone.

*low whistle*

> Back to HE, offering the service is very good from an awareness 
> standpoint, but running a tracker is not at all resource intensive. It 
> is lawyer intensive if you allow illegal stuff on it. I'm actually 
> waiting for an ISP to countersue the MAFIAA over harassment -- there are 
> plenty of cases where MAFIAA lawyers went after users whose content is 
> perfectly in order but happened to match the search string the vultures 
> were using.

I believe that the DMCA gives ISPs a "safe harbor" deal, where as long 
as they are responsive at removing illegal files/torrents, they are 
immune from prosecution.

> I thoroughly enjoy much of the old stuff on the archive.org film 
> archive, which would be a prime candidate for BitTorrenting (if they 
> haven't already, it's been a while since I went to the the archive).

I agree.

> Personal opinion yadda yadda yadda, none of the the above is intended to 
> negatively reflect on the highly specialized craft of legal defense, 
> yadda yadda yadda.

On a somewhat cool note, I submitted this story to Slashdot today and it 
was posted![1] This is my first article on Slashdot, but it didn't bring 
hordes of people to *MY* website. :/

Alas, as my email address on there is public (whoops!), I'm likely to 
see quite a hit in terms of incoming spam.

[1] <http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/24/2326228&tid=95&tid=99>

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan 26 00:27:09 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan 26 03:30:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Ah, the dilemma!
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-FCBE2C.00270926012005@news.cesmail.net>

Argh. I am faced with a geeky dilemma of vast proportions. Well, no. 
That's just a bit of dramatic license. It's not that vast.

I wish to distance myself from as many Microsoft products as possible. 
While my PC /does/ run Windows, it also has Debian Linux installed. I 
frequently find myself writing documents using the Windows-native 
version of OpenOffice, which works quite well.

However, all of my documents are on my Mac, which has Microsoft Office 
on it. I wish to remove Office (and transfer the license to my parents, 
who can use it on their computer...not that I care much about Microsoft 
licenses anyway) and install OpenOffice on the Mac.

Herein lies the quandary. I have two options:

1) Install the "real" version of OpenOffice, which requires Apple's X11 
GUI to run. As it's running in X11, OO can't interface directly with 
many system commands, as it thinks it's running on a *nix machine 
running X11 (which, to an extent, it is). OO says they're working 

2) Install an adapted "beta" version of NeoOffice, which is based 
heavily (nearly entirely) on the OO source code. NeoOffice is based on 
Java, and integrates a bit more nicely (though not fully 
"Aqua-compliant", but close) with Mac OS X, but is still in beta, so I 
don't entirely trust its stability.

I wish OO would make an Aqua-native version of OO so I wouldn't have 
this problem. :/

Anyway, given the above situation, what would you all suggest? I suppose 
I /could/ just do everything on the Windows machine, but I'm not too 
keen on that. :-P

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan 26 07:15:49 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan 26 10:20:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ah, the dilemma!
References: <pete+usenet-FCBE2C.00270926012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ozchzhq02-90DFA8.10022226012005@frylock.local>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-9A18CF.07154926012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <ozchzhq02-90DFA8.10022226012005@frylock.local>,
 David Dean <ozchzhq02@sneakemail.com> wrote:

>    Which system functions are missing in the X11 version that you would 
> miss?

Well, when running in X11, it doesn't recognize all of the system fonts. 
It converted most of them to whatever format OO needs using fondu, but 
some it did not convert.

Also, it behaves very much like a PC in terms of keyboard layout and 
appearance. The former surprises me, the latter doesn't. Instead of 
using the traditional Mac "Command" key (as in "Command-N" for a new 
document, "Command-S" to save, etc.), it requires the use of the Control 
key, which is oddly placed on my keyboard and requires some mental 
adjustment. The appearance I can deal with, as it's only minorly 
irritating.

>    The Java version may have more of the look and feel of a native app, 
> but that depends wholly on how well the developer(s) have coded it. It 
> being a beta, they are probably more open to change requests. You never 
> know how stable a beta is until you try it...

Actually, the Java version seems to have a very similar look and feel to 
the X11 version, but it uses all the OS X system fonts and responds to 
Mac modifier keys. I'll probably play around with the Java one for a bit 
(I actually have both installed), but will use MS Office for the time 
being until a native version can be made by OO. Alas, I lack the 
programming skills to contribute to OO. :/

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From eddie at eddie.web  Wed Jan 26 13:10:08 2005
From: eddie at eddie.web (eddie)
Date: Wed Jan 26 13:10:50 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: WHY????
References: <ct19am$stb$2@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.26.18.10.07.828000@eddie.web>

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:38:54 -0500, Heidi scratched out the following:

> WHY am I such a cunt? Because its my motherfucking personality. I am not a
> sweet girl and never have been. There is no WHY.

You might see if thinking outside your box did anything
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Wed Jan 26 22:26:46 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Wed Jan 26 16:30:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: WHY????
References: <ct19am$stb$2@news.spamcop.net>
	<pan.2005.01.26.18.10.07.828000@eddie.web>
Message-ID: <slrncvg2om.4a2.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:10:08 -0500, eddie coughed into spamcop.geeks and
left this in <pan.2005.01.26.18.10.07.828000@eddie.web>:

> On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:38:54 -0500, Heidi scratched out the following:
>
>> {drivel}
>
> You might see if thinking outside your box did anything

PDNFTT.



                                               .:\:/:.
           +-------------------+             .:\:\:/:/:.
           |   PLEASE DO NOT   |            :.:\:\:/:/:.:
           |  FEED THE TROLLS  |           :=.' -   - '.=:
           |                   |           '=(\ 9   9 /)='
           |   Thank you,      |              (  (_)  )
           |       Management  |              /`-vvv-'\
           +-------------------+             /         \
                   |  |        @@@          / /|,,,,,|\ \
                   |  |        @@@         /_//  /^\  \\_\
     @x@@x@        |  |         |/         WW(  (   )  )WW
     \||||/        |  |        \|           __\,,\ /,,/__
      \||/         |  |         |      jgs (______Y______)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\


-- 
Steve

Exposing M$ sExchange directly to the Internet is a lot like painting a 
bulls-eye on your backside and bending over, naked, in a Greenwich Village 
steam room (except M$ is not nearly as safe).
        -- Morely 'spam is theft' Dotes in NANAE, 08-JUL-2003.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan 26 15:41:11 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan 26 18:45:22 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ah, the dilemma!
References: <pete+usenet-FCBE2C.00270926012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ozchzhq02-90DFA8.10022226012005@frylock.local>
	<pete+usenet-9A18CF.07154926012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ozchzhq02-94B3AE.11203626012005@frylock.local>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-0D3341.15411126012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <ozchzhq02-94B3AE.11203626012005@frylock.local>,
 David Dean <ozchzhq02@sneakemail.com> wrote:

>    The reason that I haven't played with either OO port is that my 
> employer provided me with a copy of Office X. I probably should look 
> into OO and maybe even help out with the port, but I haven't had the 
> incentive or time.

I would highly recommend it -- it is a most excellent program.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan 26 15:46:51 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan 26 18:50:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ah, the dilemma!
References: <pete+usenet-FCBE2C.00270926012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<responseguard-FE9D69.10490226012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-509558.15465126012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <responseguard-FE9D69.10490226012005@news.cesmail.net>,
 "Bob W." <responseguard@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Good on ya. I've been maintaining a (virtually) Microsoft-free machine 
> for years, and I *rarely* have any compatibility/translation issues... 
> I've been using MacLink Plus for a lot of stuff, moving Word .docs into 
> AppleWorks, etc.

With the exception of Office and Internet Explorer (which I never use, 
but keep around as a "Just In Case I Need To Test Something" browser), 
my Mac has been Microsoft-free for its entire existence.

> > I wish OO would make an Aqua-native version of OO so I wouldn't have 
> > this problem. :/
> 
> Have you looked at iWork yet?
> 
> http://www.apple.com/iwork/
> 
> Looks like it doesn't have spreadsheet capabilities (yet), but it's a 
> "home-grown" option for word processing/page layout, along with Keynote 
> 2.

Honestly, I haven't. I've found that a lot of Apple software is 
too...er...cheesy. iChat doesn't compare to the real AIM, I use Firefox 
instead of Safari, Eudora instead of Mail.app, etc. Apple makes good 
OSs, but I just haven't really liked much of their other software.

That, and iWork costs $80. :)

> On the other hand, I'm not familiar with OO; are its WP features pretty 
> kewl?

They're pretty much exactly the same as MS Office, because that was 
designed as the "gold standard" that they wanted to work with. There are 
some improvements, but mostly their efforts have been spent trying to 
make the difference between MS Office and OO to be pretty much seamless.

In that regard, they've been highly successful. If you're willing to 
deal with their oddities on the Mac (i.e. X11 and whatnot), by all means 
try it out. The Windows and Linux versions of OO are superb and seamless 
in their function.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From driehuis.fcnzpbc2005 at playbeing.com  Thu Jan 27 03:51:36 2005
From: driehuis.fcnzpbc2005 at playbeing.com (Bert Driehuis)
Date: Wed Jan 26 21:55:12 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Ah, the dilemma!
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-FCBE2C.00270926012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <pete+usenet-FCBE2C.00270926012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <ct9l00$540$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:

> 1) Install the "real" version of OpenOffice, which requires Apple's X11 
> GUI to run. As it's running in X11, OO can't interface directly with 
> many system commands, as it thinks it's running on a *nix machine 
> running X11 (which, to an extent, it is). OO says they're working 

Last I checked, tremendous amounts of effort were poured into OO for 
Mac. David Dean mentioned he didn't have the incentive or time; and I 
can assure anyone that you need plenty of both to work on OO. I tried in 
the earlier days and gave up (after burning a gazillion hours on getting 
a working build environment).

> 2) Install an adapted "beta" version of NeoOffice, which is based 
> heavily (nearly entirely) on the OO source code. NeoOffice is based on 
> Java, and integrates a bit more nicely (though not fully 
> "Aqua-compliant", but close) with Mac OS X, but is still in beta, so I 
> don't entirely trust its stability.

I've never been impressed with any Java based application of the 
complexity of, say, a browser or office suit. Often, basic functionality 
in big Java apps is okay, but either the GUI stinks or the app is just 
too slow for real work. Has this been improved recently?

> I wish OO would make an Aqua-native version of OO so I wouldn't have 
> this problem. :/

I wouldn't hold my breath. OO is progressing all the time, but the 
complexity of the build system alone stops many protential contributors 
before they get up to speed. You either need a brilliant developer who 
can devote a year to this, or corporate sponsorship.

Unfortunately, I don't own a Mac that can run OS X. But OpenOffice on 
FreeBSD more than fills my needs. The only reason I maintain Windows is 
for games that stubbornly refuse to play under WINE: BVE, MS Train Sim 
and MS Flight Sim (and I'd ditch the latter in a jiffy, if only 
FlightGear could make use of third-party photorealistic ground imaging).

> Anyway, given the above situation, what would you all suggest? I suppose 
> I /could/ just do everything on the Windows machine, but I'm not too 
> keen on that. :-P

Well, if you're resigned to falling back to the Windows look and feel 
anyway, I think your best option would be to mitigate the drawbacks of 
switching. And frankly, I'd be surprised if you'd be the first to think 
of assigning the menus to the command key as a small first step (maybe 
even as a broader hack to OS X's X11 world). Has nobody done that yet?
From joegill at removethis  Wed Jan 26 23:35:24 2005
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Wed Jan 26 23:40:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
Message-ID: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>

Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
(This applies to XP or Windows 2000 only , for now)

In an apparent move to crack down on pirated copies of WINDOWS XP and 2000,
the following sites
download.microsoft.com
windowsupdate.microsoft.com
will start  a check for XP and Windows 2000 users to make sure your are
running on a VALID copy of that product!!!

"Microsoft in mid-2005 will put a piracy lock on two of its download Web
sites, requiring all Windows XP and Windows 2000 users to validate their
copy of Windows as genuine before downloading software, the company says."

However,
Validation will NOT be required for AUTOMATIC WINDOWS UPDATE

For more details.....
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,119458,pg,1,RSS,RSS,00.asp
-or-
http://tinyurl.com/7ytr5

Be careful to note...."In the United States alone, almost a quarter of all
Windows users run an illegal copy. However, one problem the software maker
faces is that many users don't know that their copy of Windows is illegal."
So be careful not to say.. "Sure my copy is genuine "...without checking!!"


From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Wed Jan 26 20:51:27 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Wed Jan 26 23:55:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Joe Gill" <joegill@removethis@prodigy.net> wrote:

> "Microsoft in mid-2005 will put a piracy lock on two of its download 
> Web sites, requiring all Windows XP and Windows 2000 users to 
> validate their copy of Windows as genuine before downloading 
> software, the company says."

Amusingly enough, this will likely cause absolutely no trouble 
whatsoever for those inclined to pirate software.

Even if locally-applied cracks, keygenerators, or other utilities don't 
allow people to "verify" their copy of Windows at their site, there's 
plenty of sources out there to find genuine CD keys.

To test this, I went around my community college today and looked at the 
computer labs. Every single computer has it's "Windows XP Professional 
License Code" sticker attached to it. As the school uses a volume 
licensing plan, none of the computers hardware information (through the 
"Activation" that Microsoft does) would be in effect. It would be 
trivial indeed to write down the different codes, take them home, and 
now have a "genuine" copy of Windows on your PC.

Same goes for internet cafes, libraries, computer stores, etc.

> However, Validation will NOT be required for AUTOMATIC WINDOWS UPDATE

Considering that most people just let the software install itself 
automatically (except for corporations, who verify and test the software 
before pushing it to their users), I fail to see how this whole 
anti-piracy scheme would have even the slightest effect.

> Be careful to note...."In the United States alone, almost a quarter of all
> Windows users run an illegal copy. However, one problem the software maker
> faces is that many users don't know that their copy of Windows is illegal."
> So be careful not to say.. "Sure my copy is genuine "...without checking!!"

These are the people who would be affected by such measures, not the 
pirates.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not a big fan of Microsoft. Windows is 
bloated, wildly overpriced, unstable, vulnerable, and generally totally 
unsuited as an operating system (though the GUI itself is not bad). 
Having people pirate Windows doesn't disturb me in the slightest -- 
Microsoft has enough money. They could start the process of justifying 
their enormous costs by actually innovating once in a while...

For the cost of XP Pro alone in the stores, I could buy a Mac Mini or 
build an entire Linux PC.

Ah, the joys of having a monopoly...

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Thu Jan 27 07:49:40 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Thu Jan 27 02:50:18 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95EAF2839437Ablammo@216.154.195.61>

On 26 Jan 2005 Pete Stephenson entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net:

> Amusingly enough, this will likely cause absolutely no trouble 
> whatsoever for those inclined to pirate software.
> 

Or those using another browser where (if necessary) the OS version can be 
munged or hidden.
Typical of Microsoft (and many other software venders) to make it harder on 
legitimate users, make it hard to download patches for computers not 
connected to the Internet. 

-- 
| Ric
|
From devnull at spamcop.net  Thu Jan 27 21:24:18 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Thu Jan 27 21:25:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Need a recommendation of FTP programs for a Mac OS 10  (prefer free)
Message-ID: <ctc7om$dq$1@news.spamcop.net>

Wife has a G4 Mac lap top with OS10.2 and needs a FTP program.  (I prefer
free if I can get it).

I don't want to play games with stuff I know little about so I'm looking for
recommendations on what I should use and avoid.

FP


From agent01413 at my-deja.com  Fri Jan 28 06:09:08 2005
From: agent01413 at my-deja.com (Socks)
Date: Fri Jan 28 01:10:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: Need a recommendation of FTP programs for a Mac OS 10  (prefer
	free)
References: <ctc7om$dq$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95EBEB8021405agent01413MYDEJACOM@216.154.195.61>

"Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote in
news:ctc7om$dq$1@news.spamcop.net: 

> Wife has a G4 Mac lap top with OS10.2 and needs a FTP program.  (I
> prefer free if I can get it).
> 
> I don't want to play games with stuff I know little about so I'm
> looking for recommendations on what I should use and avoid.
> 
> FP
> 
> 

FETCH is free for non profits and educational use. a friend of mine just 
got a non profit license and said that it was simple to use. $25 if you 
cant get a non profit license, and you can test for free for 30 days while 
deciding.

I've also heard good things about Fugu, but know no one who is actually 
using it. Fugu is a free open source frontend for SFTP (Secure FTP), SCP 
and SSH. It is released under a BSD license, and supports Mac OS X. Details 
seem to be here: http://rsug.itd.umich.edu/software/fugu/

YMMV. This advice is worth everything you paid for it.
From rcarlton at spamcop.net  Thu Jan 27 22:22:31 2005
From: rcarlton at spamcop.net (Rick Carlton)
Date: Fri Jan 28 01:25:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
 Re: Need a recommendation of FTP programs for a Mac OS 10  (prefer
 free)
In-Reply-To: <responseguard-425DAC.20102527012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <ctc7om$dq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<responseguard-425DAC.20102527012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <ctcln7$8rf$1@news.spamcop.net>

Bob W. wrote:

> It ain't free, but it kicks mighty buttocks:
> 
> Transmit... $24.95
> 
>   http://www.panic.com/transmit/
> 

re: Transmit.

Sweet app, you can try it for free.

They showed v3 preview at MacWorld;  anyone buying gets a free upgrade 
to the new version.

The Panic guys truly "get it."  Transmit is both exquisite and elegaant.

Also worth a view:

http://www.panic.com/extras/

Make sure you see Twinrate Food and USA vs Japan Food.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Thu Jan 27 23:33:22 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Fri Jan 28 02:35:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: Need a recommendation of FTP programs for a Mac OS 10  (prefer
	free)
References: <ctc7om$dq$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<responseguard-425DAC.20102527012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-AA66E8.23332227012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <responseguard-425DAC.20102527012005@news.cesmail.net>,
 "Bob W." <responseguard@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Transmit... $24.95
> 
>   http://www.panic.com/transmit/
> 
> I've been using it for years. Fast, with lots of features -- like a 
> built-in text editor, file permissions editor, drag-and-drop from the 
> Finder, etc. It's blindingly simple and intuitive, and a totally OS 
> X-like interface.
> 
> Then there's Fetch ($25), which is a good old long-established app, and 
> versions of which I used before Transmit. 
> 
>   http://fetchsoftworks.com/

I have both, and personally prefer Fetch. Transmit is still awesome, but 
I just got used to using Fetch from it's freeware days (and now have 
paid for it) for years and years. :)

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Fri Jan 28 03:31:33 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Fri Jan 28 06:35:15 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Eudora vs. Thunderbird
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-860AB7.03313328012005@news.cesmail.net>

After many, many moons of using Eudora, I'm finally considering 
switching to the excellent Thunderbird.

Both mail programs are superb in their own ways, but recently my desire 
to move away from closed-source software is causing me to lean strongly 
toward Thunderbird. Eudora is extremely powerful, flexible, and since 
I've been using it for a very long time, I have it configured >just so<.

I have an AppleScript configured to assist me in the mass-reporting of 
spam to SpamCop, nanas, and the FTC. However, there appears to be some 
inconsistency between SpamCop and Eudora that prevents it from properly 
detecting links in the body, so I've been "quick reporting" for at least 
a year.

Thunderbird, however, allows one to forward mail as an attachment (and 
forward /multiple/ mails as separate attachments to a single message), 
so SpamCop is able to interpret it properly. This is excellent.

Additionally, TB supports x.509 certificates that can be issued by 
certificate authorities for the signing and encryption of email[1]. This 
is a concern of mine as well, as Eudora allows the in-transit encryption 
by means of SSL, but does not allow the actual encryption or signing of 
mail. Older versions of Eudora (i.e. for OS 9) had a "plugin" so they 
would work with PGP, but this doesn't work with the OS X version.

In short, Thunderbird seems to have the following advantages:
* Integrated support for encryption/signing using industry-standard 
certificates (which are available free from Thawte and Comodo, to name a 
few.)
* Excellent display of (gag) HTML mail.
* Forwarding mail as attachments works well with SpamCop.
* Good junk mail filters.
* Clean, simple interface.
* Substantial "hidden power" available that doesn't clutter the desktop.
* Open-source, free software.
* Good integration with Firefox.

Eudora's advantages seem to be as such:
* Long-time use with me being very familiar with the software.
* Automated script for handing bulk-reporting of spam.

Assuming I can import mail from Eudora (which it seems I can do), is 
there any particular reason why I should /not/ use Thunderbird?

[1] As a side note, AOL Instant Messenger for Windows supports 
encrypted/signed instant messages by using standard x.509 certificates. 
Clients using these free certificates are identified by a nifty padlock 
next to their name, rather than the little AIM-dude. Very cool indeed.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From devnull at spamcop.net  Fri Jan 28 07:21:10 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Fri Jan 28 07:25:06 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: Need a recommendation of FTP programs for a Mac OS 10  (prefer
	free)
References: <ctc7om$dq$1@news.spamcop.net> <ctcudv$ed9$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <ctdaq0$lga$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Mr K. Mean" <47p772ok02@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:ctcudv$ed9$1@news.spamcop.net...
| Frog Prince wrote:
| > Wife has a G4 Mac lap top with OS10.2 and needs a FTP program.  (I
prefer
| > free if I can get it).
| >
| > I don't want to play games with stuff I know little about so I'm looking
for
| > recommendations on what I should use and avoid.
|
| What do you need to do with it?  If you just need simple transfers,
| there are a bunch of ways.  Most browsers support ftp already.  If you
| are just downloading from ftp sites, you use a url like:
| ftp://username:password@site
|
| Is OS10.2 the Unix based one?  I always get that mixed up.  If it is, it
| should already have a command line ftp client built in.
|
| I kind of like the command line tools because then you can use it in
| scripting and stuff like that, something like Curl
| http://curl.haxx.se/download.html
|
| But I guess it all depends on exactly what you planning on doing with it.

This will be a commercial application as my wife will be transferring files
to/from clients.  It also needs to be easy and hopefully intuitive for an
artist who is totally into Apple OS (she does windows but with the same
enthusiasm most men have for changing soiled diapers)


From hee.haw at jack.ass  Fri Jan 28 08:12:42 2005
From: hee.haw at jack.ass (DC)
Date: Fri Jan 28 08:15:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Eudora vs. Thunderbird
References: <pete+usenet-860AB7.03313328012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <ctddo6$n3k$1@news.spamcop.net>

Does Thunderbird support USENET reading?


-- 
It rubs the lotion on its skin...
Or else it gets the hose again...
www.dwacon.com



From user at domain.invalid  Fri Jan 28 07:57:23 2005
From: user at domain.invalid (User)
Date: Fri Jan 28 09:00:19 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Eudora vs. Thunderbird
In-Reply-To: <ctddo6$n3k$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <pete+usenet-860AB7.03313328012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ctddo6$n3k$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <ctdga0$osj$1@news.spamcop.net>

On 28.01.2005 07:12, DC wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> Does Thunderbird support USENET reading?
> 
> 

Yes, it's a mail/news application - standalone.
From michael.spamcop at michaellefevre.com  Fri Jan 28 14:19:49 2005
From: michael.spamcop at michaellefevre.com (Michael Lefevre)
Date: Fri Jan 28 09:20:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Eudora vs. Thunderbird
References: <pete+usenet-860AB7.03313328012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ctddo6$n3k$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <ctdhm5$pnq$1@news.spamcop.net>

DC wrote:
> Does Thunderbird support USENET reading?

Yes. It's killfiling capabilities are not very sophisticated, and it
doesn't handle multipart binaries, but for casual newsgroup reading it's
fine.

-- 
Michael
From kenbrody at spamcop.net  Fri Jan 28 10:02:09 2005
From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody)
Date: Fri Jan 28 11:00:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95EAF2839437Ablammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <41FA53F1.3FF4947C@spamcop.net>

Blammo wrote:
[...]
> Typical of Microsoft (and many other software venders) to make it harder on
> legitimate users, make it hard to download patches for computers not
> connected to the Internet.

Some software needs to computer attached to the Internet simply to install.
A client brought in her virus/spyware/trojan-laden system to be exorcised.
The system was so clogged that Norton AntiVirus wouldn't run anymore.  After
much work cleaning the system, it's now to the point where NAV can be
reinstalled, though it's hardly "clean".  Well, without attaching the
system to the net to finish the re-activating, I can't run NAV to clean it
further.  (It's in "free trial" mode until I can re-activate it, and the
trial period has expired.)  Well, there's no way I'm connecting this system
to our LAN in order to allow it to talk to Symantec's servers until I can
verify that it's at least "mostly clean".

-- 
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
| Kenneth J. Brody        | www.hvcomputer.com |                             |
| kenbrody/at\spamcop.net | www.fptech.com     | #include <std_disclaimer.h> |
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
Don't e-mail me at: <mailto:ThisIsASpamTrap@gmail.com>

From nobody at spamcop.net  Fri Jan 28 13:48:52 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri Jan 28 13:50:20 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <cte1ab$3qm$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
Having people pirate Windows doesn't disturb me in the
> slightest --

Picking and choosing what software is ok to pirate, are we?


From nobody at spamcop.net  Fri Jan 28 13:52:05 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri Jan 28 13:50:24 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: Need a recommendation of FTP programs for a Mac OS 10  (prefer
	free)
References: <ctc7om$dq$1@news.spamcop.net> <ctcudv$ed9$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cte1gc$3sc$1@news.spamcop.net>

Mr K. Mean wrote:
> What do you need to do with it?  If you just need simple transfers,
> there are a bunch of ways.  Most browsers support ftp already.  If you
> are just downloading from ftp sites, you use a url like:
> ftp://username:password@site

I'm not smart enough to know why, but that URL method is about 10 times
slower than a standalone app like WS_FTP95....


From dfm2a3l0t2 at spymac.com  Fri Jan 28 16:18:04 2005
From: dfm2a3l0t2 at spymac.com (D.F. Manno)
Date: Fri Jan 28 16:20:17 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: Need a recommendation of FTP programs for a Mac OS 10  (prefer
	free)
References: <ctc7om$dq$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <dfm2a3l0t2-0A3204.16180328012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <ctc7om$dq$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Frog Prince" <devnull@spamcop.net> wrote:

> Wife has a G4 Mac lap top with OS10.2 and needs a FTP program.  (I prefer
> free if I can get it).
> 
> I don't want to play games with stuff I know little about so I'm looking for
> recommendations on what I should use and avoid.

I use and recommend Interarchy (formerly Anarchie). $39.

<http://www.interarchy.com/main/>
-- 
D.F. Manno
dfm2a3l0t2@spymac.com
"The country we carry in our hearts is waiting."
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Fri Jan 28 22:25:57 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Fri Jan 28 16:30:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cte1ab$3qm$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <slrncvlbf5.4gt.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:48:52 -0500, Indigo coughed into spamcop.geeks
and left this in <cte1ab$3qm$1@news.spamcop.net>:

> Picking and choosing what software is ok to pirate, are we?

He said "Windows", not software. Duh! :)

-- 
Steve

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Fri Jan 28 22:27:57 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Fri Jan 28 16:30:08 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: Dotster now makes it impossible to transfer out.
References: <responseguard-D7C364.10210928012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <slrncvlbit.4gt.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:21:09 -0800, Bob W. coughed into spamcop.geeks
and left this in <responseguard-D7C364.10210928012005@news.cesmail.net>:

> Below the text is a SINGLE BUTTON:
>
> "DO NOT TRANSFER THIS DOMAIN".
>
> There is NO "Confirm Transfer" button.

No reply under 5 days means a tacit acceptance of the transfer. You now 
have to show signs of life to *refuse* the transfer.

-- 
Steve

A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Fri Jan 28 16:32:18 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Fri Jan 28 19:35:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Eudora vs. Thunderbird
References: <pete+usenet-860AB7.03313328012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ctddo6$n3k$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<ozchzhq02-AE5394.13043628012005@frylock.local>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-EBDBCB.16321828012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <ozchzhq02-AE5394.13043628012005@frylock.local>,
 David Dean <ozchzhq02@sneakemail.com> wrote:

>    Yes, but since we are talking about mac applications, MT-Newswatcher 
> is *far* superior for that purpose. (IMHO)

Indeed. I looked at what Thunderbird can do for newsgroups, and wasn't 
terribly impressed. I'd rather have a separate news client anyway.

MT-NW is going to be an extremely tough program to beat.

>    As to mac email programs. I have yet to find something for OS X that 
> satisfactorily replaces Claris Emailer. What I would do to be able to 
> get the source code for that so that I could update it for OS X, IMAP, 
> SMTP AUTH, etc.

I've never used Claris Emailer. Are you sure it hasn't been open-sourced 
before it finally died out completely?

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Fri Jan 28 16:36:20 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Fri Jan 28 19:40:05 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95EAF2839437Ablammo@216.154.195.61> <41FA53F1.3FF4947C@spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-534EB5.16362028012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <41FA53F1.3FF4947C@spamcop.net>,
 Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> wrote:

> Some software needs to computer attached to the Internet simply to install.
> A client brought in her virus/spyware/trojan-laden system to be exorcised.
> The system was so clogged that Norton AntiVirus wouldn't run anymore.  After
> much work cleaning the system, it's now to the point where NAV can be
> reinstalled, though it's hardly "clean".  Well, without attaching the
> system to the net to finish the re-activating, I can't run NAV to clean it
> further.  (It's in "free trial" mode until I can re-activate it, and the
> trial period has expired.)  Well, there's no way I'm connecting this system
> to our LAN in order to allow it to talk to Symantec's servers until I can
> verify that it's at least "mostly clean".

See if you can download ZoneAlarm Free and Grisoft AVG Free on another 
computer and install them on disk. Also be sure to get the latest AV 
defs for AVG. Both are excellent (the former being a firewall, the 
latter being anti-virus software).

If you can install them both when the computer's not on the network, 
then use ZoneAlarm to block all outgoing connections (except for the AVG 
updater, Windows Update, etc.), you should be pretty safe in terms of 
not infecting anyone else.

NAV is bloated and doesn't detect nearly as much stuff as AVG. I was so 
impressed with AVG Free and have used it on so many computers (both my 
own PC here, as well as several dozen soldier's computers when I was in 
the army) that I finally decided to pay the $33 USD for the two-year 
"pro" subscription. No real change in features, just good karma. :)

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Fri Jan 28 16:41:44 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Fri Jan 28 19:45:21 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cte1ab$3qm$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-AD33EA.16414428012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <cte1ab$3qm$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "Indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:

> Picking and choosing what software is ok to pirate, are we?

Assuming I were to pirate software, yes.

I will admit to having pirated software in the past (mostly games), but 
amazingly enough, I paid for nearly all of it (the stuff I didn't pay 
for I only played a level or two, got bored, and deleted). Anything I 
played for more than an hour or so total, I paid for.

When Mac game developers make a game, there may not be that much profit 
involved due to the smaller user base. Every sale counts. Microsoft, on 
the other hand, is Evil(tm) and has absurd amounts of money.

Even with 25% of American Windows users, and 98% of Chinese users (not 
to mention the tens of millions of people elsewhere in the world) 
pirating Windows, Microsoft is *STILL* posting record earnings.

I dunno...I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for Microsoft not 
making a few hundred dollars more (grossly overpriced for an OS) per 
customer, only to make users pay again after they force-obsolete their 
software in a few years.

I've got a pretty good ethical sense (hence why I pay for software), but 
I just can't quite get it to apply to Microsoft. Very odd indeed.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From borgholio at storymind.com  Fri Jan 28 18:08:23 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Fri Jan 28 21:10:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Need audio converter software
Message-ID: <cter5p$j89$1@news.spamcop.net>

A friend needs some audio converter software.  Here's his problem:

I want to be able to convert .OGG audio files to .WAV audio files 
(preserving quality as well). I will also settle for going from .OGG to AIFF 
as well. I just need to be able to convert these things and no matter what 
software I've tried so far, it doesn't work.
From kenbrody at spamcop.net  Fri Jan 28 23:00:22 2005
From: kenbrody at spamcop.net (Kenneth Brody)
Date: Fri Jan 28 23:05:26 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need audio converter software
References: <cter5p$j89$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <41FB0A56.209D9876@spamcop.net>

Borgholio wrote:
> 
> A friend needs some audio converter software.  Here's his problem:
> 
> I want to be able to convert .OGG audio files to .WAV audio files
> (preserving quality as well). I will also settle for going from .OGG to AIFF
> as well. I just need to be able to convert these things and no matter what
> software I've tried so far, it doesn't work.

GIYF: "ogg wav convert" without quotes.

-- 
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
| Kenneth J. Brody        | www.hvcomputer.com |                             |
| kenbrody/at\spamcop.net | www.fptech.com     | #include <std_disclaimer.h> |
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
Don't e-mail me at: <mailto:ThisIsASpamTrap@gmail.com>

From TJLWBECGSGWU at spammotel.com  Sat Jan 29 04:16:23 2005
From: TJLWBECGSGWU at spammotel.com (Mathew Hendry)
Date: Fri Jan 28 23:20:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need audio converter software
References: <cter5p$j89$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <3t2mv0tg1tejpsn8k6mfnmpd4lmh1rpqhl@4ax.com>

Borgholio <borgholio@storymind.com> wrote in
<cter5p$j89$1@news.spamcop.net>:

>A friend needs some audio converter software.  Here's his problem:
>
>I want to be able to convert .OGG audio files to .WAV audio files 
>(preserving quality as well). I will also settle for going from .OGG to AIFF 
>as well. I just need to be able to convert these things and no matter what 
>software I've tried so far, it doesn't work.

What platform? On Windows, an old standby is to play the file in Winamp with
the output plugin set to "Disk Writer". Just remember to turn off the
equalizer and any other effects or they'll be burned into the WAV.

-- Mat.

From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Sat Jan 29 10:14:57 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Sat Jan 29 05:15:15 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cte1ab$3qm$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-AD33EA.16414428012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95ED1702AB717blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 28 Jan 2005 Pete Stephenson entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:pete+usenet-AD33EA.16414428012005@news.cesmail.net:

> Even with 25% of American Windows users, and 98% of Chinese users (not 
> to mention the tens of millions of people elsewhere in the world) 
> pirating Windows, Microsoft is *STILL* posting record earnings.


They (MS affliates I guess) even send out letters to companies inviting 
them to turn in pirated software, or something like that (I never really 
read the letter).
I wonder if they can use the pirated software figures in their net loss to 
lower their taxes. Maybe the money they spend trying to recover pirated 
software figures in there too.

-- 
| Ric
|
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Sat Jan 29 10:34:47 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Sat Jan 29 05:35:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Eudora vs. Thunderbird
References: <pete+usenet-860AB7.03313328012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95ED1A5FBDA48blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 28 Jan 2005 Pete Stephenson entered spamcop.geeks and left 
news:pete+usenet-860AB7.03313328012005@news.cesmail.net:

> In short, Thunderbird seems to have the following advantages:
> 
<stuff>

I don't know for sure that it's the same on MAC (don't know why it 
wouldn't be), but Mozilla Thunderbird mail is stored in UNIX format, so you 
can you can write scripts to parse your mail. Except for a few added 
headers, what you see is what you received.
For example I sometimes search my mail files for an IP address to get a 
count of them, using a program that does posex or regex searches.


-- 
| Ric
|
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Sat Jan 29 10:39:08 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Sat Jan 29 05:40:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need audio converter software
References: <cter5p$j89$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95ED1B1C215F0blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 28 Jan 2005 Borgholio entered spamcop.geeks and left
news:cter5p$j89$1@news.spamcop.net: 

> A friend needs some audio converter software.  Here's his problem:
> 
> I want to be able to convert .OGG audio files to .WAV audio files 
> (preserving quality as well). I will also settle for going from .OGG
> to AIFF as well. I just need to be able to convert these things and no
> matter what software I've tried so far, it doesn't work.

http://www.foobar2000.org

-- 
| Ric
|
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sat Jan 29 03:16:50 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sat Jan 29 06:20:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Eudora vs. Thunderbird
References: <pete+usenet-860AB7.03313328012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95ED1A5FBDA48blammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-204341.03165029012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <Xns95ED1A5FBDA48blammo@216.154.195.61>,
 Blammo <ric.gates@bigsleep.org> wrote:

> I don't know for sure that it's the same on MAC (don't know why it 
> wouldn't be), but Mozilla Thunderbird mail is stored in UNIX format, so you 
> can you can write scripts to parse your mail. Except for a few added 
> headers, what you see is what you received.
> For example I sometimes search my mail files for an IP address to get a 
> count of them, using a program that does posex or regex searches.

Hmm. Is there any max size limit for mailboxes? My trash box in Eudora 
would say "full" once it got 32,000 messages (which was about every few 
months). Hopefully Thunderbird would simply keep on truckin' and allow 
even larger mailbox files.

TB seems to be working quite well, with the following caveats:
* It obviously didn't import Eudora's Bayesian scoring database (I 
wasn't expecting it to, anyway). This presents some problem, as some 
mailing lists get marked as spam. I need to be very attentive while TB 
learns.
* Still getting used to not having an automatic script handle my 
spam-reporting. Having to manually mark messages as read and trash them 
is somewhat annoying.
* Marking messages as "Not Junk" after they've been mistakenly filtered 
does not move them to the Inbox.

Other than that, it was a surprisingly easy transition.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From notgiven at nodomain.net  Sat Jan 29 09:01:13 2005
From: notgiven at nodomain.net (C. S.)
Date: Sat Jan 29 09:05:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need audio converter software
References: <cter5p$j89$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95ED1B1C215F0blammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <7h5nv053rbv4m29jvdvhk9gf4lj1fb1p8d@4ax.com>

Sometime around Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:39:08 +0000 (UTC), Blammo <ric.gates@bigsleep.org>
deemed it necessary to offer:

> http://www.foobar2000.org

>From the above site:

"Foobar2000 is an advanced audio player for the Windows platform."

I don't find any mention of conversion capabilities.

Free to try, small size and a good UI, Goldwave is a nifty
little package to get the job done...

"...Convert files to/from different formats, such as wav, wma, mp3, ogg, aiff, au, vox and
even raw binary data..."

http://www.goldwave.com/
From nobody at spamcop.net  Sat Jan 29 11:58:26 2005
From: nobody at spamcop.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat Jan 29 12:00:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Re: Need a recommendation of FTP programs for a Mac OS 10  (prefer
	free)
References: <ctc7om$dq$1@news.spamcop.net> <ctcudv$ed9$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<cte1gc$3sc$1@news.spamcop.net> <cte9eu$8le$2@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <ctgf76$f35$1@news.spamcop.net>

Mr K. Mean wrote:
>> I'm not smart enough to know why, but that URL method is about 10
>> times slower than a standalone app like WS_FTP95....
>
> I'm guessing that it might have to do with maintaining the session or
> something.  With the ftp client, you login and stay logged in until
> you break the connection.  I assume that in the browser, it logs in
> each time you try something else and then disconnects at the end.

I meant the downloads themselves seem to take forever -- maybe it's not
downloading in binary format when you use the URL option?


From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Sat Jan 29 17:58:03 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Sat Jan 29 13:00:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Eudora vs. Thunderbird
References: <pete+usenet-860AB7.03313328012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95ED1A5FBDA48blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-204341.03165029012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95ED65851E081blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 29 Jan 2005 Pete Stephenson entered spamcop.geeks and left
news:pete+usenet-204341.03165029012005@news.cesmail.net: 

> 
> Hmm. Is there any max size limit for mailboxes? My trash box in Eudora
> would say "full" once it got 32,000 messages (which was about every
> few months). Hopefully Thunderbird would simply keep on truckin' and
> allow even larger mailbox files.
> 

Not that I'm aware of. It keeps an email summary file and a message count 
file so it doesn't have to actually read the mail file itself. If you 
delete the summary and count (panacea) files, it will "forget" your 
messages until you select the folder when it will have to parse the entire 
folder (actually a single file, not a folder). So when I archive these 
"folders" I discovered it's a good idea to delete the panacea file as well, 
or copy the mail and delete the folder within Mozilla, otherwise it will 
think you have messages in an empty folder.
That probably sounds a little confusing if you've never looked at these 
files.
On the Mac I believe these files are somewhere in
~/Library/Thunderbird/Profiles/default/xxxxxxxx.slt

> TB seems to be working quite well, with the following caveats:
> * It obviously didn't import Eudora's Bayesian scoring database (I 
> wasn't expecting it to, anyway). This presents some problem, as some 
> mailing lists get marked as spam. I need to be very attentive while TB
> learns.

Mark these messages as Not Junk and it will learn Junk faster.

> * Still getting used to not having an automatic script handle my 
> spam-reporting. Having to manually mark messages as read and trash
> them is somewhat annoying.

I'm not sure I understand the problem there, just select multiple messages 
and hit Delete? It will also move old messages to the Trash automatically.

> * Marking messages as "Not Junk" after they've been mistakenly
> filtered does not move them to the Inbox.
> 

You really want a "Junk Undo". Two of my accounts are IMAP so I just 
undelete them. Somewhere I saw an extension for "undoing Junk", but I doubt 
it moves it back to the Inbox. There is actually a "ham" state in Mozilla 
Thunderbird.
I actually don't use Thunderbird, but Mozilla, and there are a few things 
different, but you can get extensions for that, such as the Get All Mail 
extension. Offline mode used to be an extension, now it's an install 
option.

Besides Mozilla Update you can check http://extensionroom.mozdev.org
You should probably backup your profile if you add an extension, especially  
if it doesn't say it works in your version.

As an example look at this
http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/more-info/mailconsole
It looks like it needs to be updated, but gives you a good idea of the 
things you can do.
-- 
| Ric

From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Sat Jan 29 18:15:13 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Sat Jan 29 13:20:26 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need audio converter software
References: <cter5p$j89$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<Xns95ED1B1C215F0blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<7h5nv053rbv4m29jvdvhk9gf4lj1fb1p8d@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Xns95ED686CFB3F4blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 29 Jan 2005 C. S. entered spamcop.geeks and left
news:7h5nv053rbv4m29jvdvhk9gf4lj1fb1p8d@4ax.com: 

> Sometime around Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:39:08 +0000 (UTC), Blammo
> <ric.gates@bigsleep.org> deemed it necessary to offer:
> 
>> http://www.foobar2000.org
> 
> From the above site:
> 
> "Foobar2000 is an advanced audio player for the Windows platform."
> 
> I don't find any mention of conversion capabilities.
> 

So you deemed it necessary to offer more useless information, since you 
obviously don't know whether it does or not. I do know because that's why I 
installed it, I learned about it from another forum.
http://www.foobar2000.org/components.html#foo_diskwriter


> Free to try, small size and a good UI, Goldwave is a nifty
> little package to get the job done...
> 
> "...Convert files to/from different formats, such as wav, wma, mp3,
> ogg, aiff, au, vox and even raw binary data..."
> 
> http://www.goldwave.com/

You should've just stuck with that comment.

-- 
| Ric
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sat Jan 29 13:57:52 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sat Jan 29 17:00:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Eudora vs. Thunderbird
References: <pete+usenet-860AB7.03313328012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95ED1A5FBDA48blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-204341.03165029012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95ED65851E081blammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-BFC90D.13575229012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <Xns95ED65851E081blammo@216.154.195.61>,
 Blammo <ric.gates@bigsleep.org> wrote:

> Mark these messages as Not Junk and it will learn Junk faster.

Right, of course. That's exactly the same as Eudora...and also Common 
Sense. :)

> > * Still getting used to not having an automatic script handle my 
> > spam-reporting. Having to manually mark messages as read and trash
> > them is somewhat annoying.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand the problem there, just select multiple messages 
> and hit Delete? It will also move old messages to the Trash automatically.

Oh, there's not really a problem...it's just different. Something new to 
get used to.

> > * Marking messages as "Not Junk" after they've been mistakenly
> > filtered does not move them to the Inbox.
> > 
> 
> You really want a "Junk Undo". Two of my accounts are IMAP so I just 
> undelete them. Somewhere I saw an extension for "undoing Junk", but I doubt 
> it moves it back to the Inbox. There is actually a "ham" state in Mozilla 
> Thunderbird.

Hmm. I'll take a look...

Thanks.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From nobody at devnull.spamcop.net  Sat Jan 29 18:02:37 2005
From: nobody at devnull.spamcop.net (Pop)
Date: Sat Jan 29 18:05:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Need audio converter software
References: <cter5p$j89$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cth4ma$rvc$1@news.spamcop.net>

Borgholio wrote:
> A friend needs some audio converter software.  Here's his
> problem:
> I want to be able to convert .OGG audio files to .WAV
> audio files (preserving quality as well). I will also
> settle for going from .OGG to AIFF as well. I just need
> to be able to convert these things and no matter what
> software I've tried so far, it doesn't work.

AUDACITY:  Great, exports about anything to wav or mp3, reads OGG 
& most all else.
http://www.audacity.com/

Pop

From nobody at devnull.spamcop.net  Sat Jan 29 18:10:46 2005
From: nobody at devnull.spamcop.net (Pop)
Date: Sat Jan 29 18:15:37 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] OOPS! Re: Need audio converter software
References: <cter5p$j89$1@news.spamcop.net> <cth4ma$rvc$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <cth55j$sci$1@news.spamcop.net>

OOPS: Belay that last and try:
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

sorry!  I knew something didn't look right!

Pop


Pop wrote:
> Borgholio wrote:
>> A friend needs some audio converter software.  Here's his
>> problem:
>> I want to be able to convert .OGG audio files to .WAV
>> audio files (preserving quality as well). I will also
>> settle for going from .OGG to AIFF as well. I just need
>> to be able to convert these things and no matter what
>> software I've tried so far, it doesn't work.
> 
> AUDACITY:  Great, exports about anything to wav or mp3,
> reads OGG & most all else.
> http://www.audacity.com/
> 
> Pop


From wb8tyw at qsl.network  Sat Jan 29 20:10:03 2005
From: wb8tyw at qsl.network (John E. Malmberg)
Date: Sat Jan 29 20:15:25 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-AD33EA.16414428012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cte1ab$3qm$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-AD33EA.16414428012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <cthc5c$sa$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> In article <cte1ab$3qm$1@news.spamcop.net>,
>  "Indigo" <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote:
> 
>>Picking and choosing what software is ok to pirate, are we?
> 
> Assuming I were to pirate software, yes.
>
> Even with 25% of American Windows users, and 98% of Chinese users (not 
> to mention the tens of millions of people elsewhere in the world) 
> pirating Windows, Microsoft is *STILL* posting record earnings.

You might want to look up past history on Microsoft's reported record 
earnings.  And also news articles last year quoting senior Microsoft 
management about their cost v/s expenses and what they are doing about 
it.  The information available from that company is not consistent, but 
it appears that there is cost cutting going on in some areas.

It does not matter what the earnings are.  What matters is profit.

A business can have record earnings and still be losing money.

For a publicly owned company, cash reserves can be misleading as it is 
possible to have debts or other long term obligations that can exceed 
those cash reserves.  And cash reserves can be from the sale of stock 
(debt) not profit from selling products.  If you sell enough stock at a 
high enough price, you can bring in enough cash to hide a whole lot of 
problems.  Some long term obligations also may not be required to be 
stated on the SEC statements.  But they are such that if a software 
company does not do them, they stand to lose a lot of customers.

As I am not a Microsoft stock holder, I have no idea of what is in their 
statements, or if they break out what lines are profitable if any or 
which ones are losing money if any.

I seem to remember court testimony from the CEO about how they keep 
track of such things at one of the trials.

> I've got a pretty good ethical sense (hence why I pay for software), but 
> I just can't quite get it to apply to Microsoft. Very odd indeed.

It is a slippery slope to be on.  It is better to have one set of values 
to apply to all.

Right now, most commercial software licensing policies are so complex 
that it is impossible for the buyer to know if they are compliant with 
them, unless such compliance is enforced through a key mechanism.

This is something that corporate comptrollers are now starting to 
notice, along with that any employee of their company can easily install 
non-license software which can expose a company to serious legal problems.

A high risk is also from turn-key vendors and software contractors that 
do not understand what license obligations they have subjected their 
customers to, and customers that do not realize that the vendor did not 
process the license transfers correctly or include the license costs in 
their bid.  Many software project managers in a company are not aware 
that doing some things will greatly increase the license costs for their 
company.

Tighter license controls by a software vendor will expose much of this 
accidental piracy, and some companies may be shocked to find out that 
they need to shell out a ton of money for per seat licenses that they 
did not realize the in house developed software required because none of the
developers or project managers read the license requirements when they 
did the design and budgeting.

-John
wb8tyw@qsl.network
Personal Opinion Only

-- 
This system is definitely not running Microsoft Windows.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sat Jan 29 17:37:19 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sat Jan 29 20:40:02 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cte1ab$3qm$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-AD33EA.16414428012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<cthc5c$sa$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-9C5DC5.17371929012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <cthc5c$sa$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote:

> It is a slippery slope to be on.  It is better to have one set of values 
> to apply to all.

Indeed. However, I simply avoid having Microsoft products installed as 
much as possible. Those that are installed are "free" (as in beer, not 
freedom).

I would much rather have "free" (as in freedom, not beer) software 
installed, and do that as much as possible.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sat Jan 29 20:21:32 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sat Jan 29 23:25:32 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Linux on iPod?
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-F9F8B3.20213229012005@news.cesmail.net>

Wow, some people are taking the whole Linux thing to extremes.

http://ipodlinux.org/ has a customized Linux installation and version of 
the 2.4 kernel to run on first, second, and third generation iPods. The 
instructions make it appear to be quite simple and painless to install. 
I lack an iPod, so I certainly won't be bothering...but it's pretty cool.

In order to get the LCD, Clickwheel, and hard disk working, they needed 
to reverse-engineer the bootloader in the flashrom. Since nobody really 
knew how to /get/ to the bootloader to read its contents, one guy 
figured out an interesting way of doing it -- outputting the entire code 
of the bootloader, in binary, over the piezoelectric speaker[1]. Yes, 
that's right...outputting the bootloader one bit at a time ACOUSTICALLY.

Info is at http://ipodlinux.org/stories/piezo/

Dear god, these people are geniuses. I come across as a mentally 
retarded monkey on crack compared to some of these folks. Damn. I might 
as well work at a McDonalds or something -- these guys are like rocket 
scientists...but with iPods. :-P

[1] Similar to the "PC speaker" in most PCs.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From devnull at spamcop.net  Sat Jan 29 23:08:34 2005
From: devnull at spamcop.net (Frog Prince)
Date: Sat Jan 29 23:35:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] ipod stereoscope
References: <pdb_NOSPAM-966C5D.19521829012005@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <cthntr$7mb$1@news.spamcop.net>

????

Is this the worlds smallest completely self contained
stereoscopic projection system? A technology collaboration
between 1905 and 2005.
   http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~pbourke/ipodphoto/


From TJLWBECGSGWU at spammotel.com  Sun Jan 30 05:37:07 2005
From: TJLWBECGSGWU at spammotel.com (Mathew Hendry)
Date: Sun Jan 30 00:40:09 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Music on iPod!
Message-ID: <r3rov0p7b89i38ptk7crlqfl0vhop11lue@4ax.com>

Just spotted this story: some wily hackers have discovered that *all* iPod
models can be made to play music, and Apple aren't even trying to stop them!
(Though they haven't ruled out closing the loophole in future versions of
iTunes).

http://www.apple.com/ipod/musicandmore.html

It's like a miniature iPod-shaped pocket jukebox!

I must buy one now, this is just too cool. :)

-- Mat.

From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sun Jan 30 01:05:29 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sun Jan 30 04:10:30 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Music on iPod!
References: <r3rov0p7b89i38ptk7crlqfl0vhop11lue@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-7B0615.01052930012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <r3rov0p7b89i38ptk7crlqfl0vhop11lue@4ax.com>,
 Mathew Hendry <TJLWBECGSGWU@spammotel.com> wrote:

> Just spotted this story: some wily hackers have discovered that *all* iPod
> models can be made to play music, and Apple aren't even trying to stop them!
> (Though they haven't ruled out closing the loophole in future versions of
> iTunes).

*laughs* Indeed, and I thought it was just a PalmPilot on steroids. This 
whole mobile-music thing will cause a craze! :)

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From michael.spamcop at michaellefevre.com  Sun Jan 30 17:01:39 2005
From: michael.spamcop at michaellefevre.com (Michael Lefevre)
Date: Sun Jan 30 12:05:26 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Eudora vs. Thunderbird
References: <pete+usenet-860AB7.03313328012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<Xns95ED1A5FBDA48blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<pete+usenet-204341.03165029012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <ctj3tj$u8g$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> In article <Xns95ED1A5FBDA48blammo@216.154.195.61>,
>  Blammo <ric.gates@bigsleep.org> wrote:
>
>> I don't know for sure that it's the same on MAC (don't know why it 
>> wouldn't be), but Mozilla Thunderbird mail is stored in UNIX format, so you 
>> can you can write scripts to parse your mail. Except for a few added 
>> headers, what you see is what you received.
>> For example I sometimes search my mail files for an IP address to get a 
>> count of them, using a program that does posex or regex searches.
>
> Hmm. Is there any max size limit for mailboxes?

Yes. IIRC - it was 2GB until recently (I'm not sure if it was improved
before or after Thunderbird 1.0 was released), and is now up to 4GB.  I
believe the theoretical limit to the number of messages (again, for 1
folder) is around 16.7 million, but things get rather slow long before
that. The 2GB limit is more likely to be an issue, although hopefully not
for too many people.

-- 
Michael
From "Bill Turlock" at sonnic.net  Sun Jan 30 11:43:34 2005
From: "Bill Turlock" at sonnic.net (Bill Turlock)
Date: Sun Jan 30 14:45:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] 
	Goodbye, Old Friend... Computer Associate's E-Z Trust Anti-Virus
Message-ID: <41FD38E6.FBDEEA98@sonnic.net>


It was with sadness that last night I removed Computer Associate's E-Z
Trust Anti-Virus from my computer.


I have been using their software to protect my computer since the late
nineties. I started with their free Inoculate-It Personal Edition, and
have had nothing but praise for their products. I had never had a virus
get through, and only one false positive, in all that time!

I had recommended it unequivocally to all my friends and family.

When the free IPE was discontinued, I gladly paid their price for the
new E-Z, and the $10.00/year for definition updates.

Earlier this month I had received an e-mail notice that my yearly
subscription was about to expire, and that I should go to their website
to get it renewed.

The website is a maze of twisty little passages, all alike, impossible
for me to navigate, and in most places, nonfunctional for me. At one
point, it wanted me to enter my CC number on a non-SSL page! And good
luck on getting their on-line help desk function to work, it's a loop!
Talk to a human? Ain't gonna happen.

And... now, the yearly definition updates subscription has gone up to
$20.00, and if that's not enough, they've gone over to the Dark Side...
a preference box for e-mail offers permission on the order page is
'pre-checked'.


It's just too much, and I'm not going to take it any more. I've
researched my favorite forums for recommendations on the best free A/V,
and AVG seems to come up tops most of the time, so last night I blew out
E-Z and installed Grisoft's AVG.

Goodbye, Old Friend.

Bill
From joegill at removethis  Sun Jan 30 15:25:26 2005
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Sun Jan 30 15:47:28 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <ctjfrk$a2u$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Pete Stephenson" <pete+usenet@heypete.com> wrote in message
news:pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net...
> In article <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>,
>  "Joe Gill" <joegill@removethis@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> > "Microsoft in mid-2005 will put a piracy lock on two of its download
> > Web sites, requiring all Windows XP and Windows 2000 users to
> > validate their copy of Windows as genuine before downloading
> > software, the company says."
>
> Amusingly enough, this will likely cause absolutely no trouble
> whatsoever for those inclined to pirate software.
>
> Even if locally-applied cracks, keygenerators, or other utilities don't
> allow people to "verify" their copy of Windows at their site, there's
> plenty of sources out there to find genuine CD keys.
>
I 'think' this will eventually mean.. one copy = one verification...
Execptions will be dealt with..

> To test this, I went around my community college today and looked at the
> computer labs. Every single computer has it's "Windows XP Professional
> License Code" sticker attached to it. As the school uses a volume
> licensing plan, none of the computers hardware information (through the
> "Activation" that Microsoft does) would be in effect. It would be
> trivial indeed to write down the different codes, take them home, and
> now have a "genuine" copy of Windows on your PC.

Ahh.. But I believe that 'code', will only activate with that 'version' of
the Windows XP Pro CD
IIRC, there are about 9?? versions of the CD!
>
> Same goes for internet cafes, libraries, computer stores, etc.
>
> > However, Validation will NOT be required for AUTOMATIC WINDOWS UPDATE
>
> Considering that most people just let the software install itself
> automatically (except for corporations, who verify and test the software
> before pushing it to their users), I fail to see how this whole
> anti-piracy scheme would have even the slightest effect.
>
A) But some of the 'feaures' are not automatic anymore..
B) This will also affect the 'Download Center'. too
C) This also affects items like AntiSpy Center... (Digress a bit..) (and
lets' not turn  this into IE vs (Firefox, Moziila etc. etc)
I was assisting someone cleaning up thier PC from some NASTY
'hijacking'..Latest and Greated Ad-Aware was oblivious to it... Ditto for
Spybot.... Microsoft (Formerly Giant) Ant-Spyware) detected and cleaned it
completely!
Why am I mentioning it?
It is setup for voluntary 'autheticiation' in the Download Center...
Other new 'free' Microsoft tools for photos and other purposes are in the
same status...
Remember too... who is writing/releasing most of the device drivers for the
systems???

> > Be careful to note...."In the United States alone, almost a quarter of
all
> > Windows users run an illegal copy. However, one problem the software
maker
> > faces is that many users don't know that their copy of Windows is
illegal."
> > So be careful not to say.. "Sure my copy is genuine "...without
checking!!"
>
> These are the people who would be affected by such measures, not the
> pirates.
>
> In case you haven't noticed, I'm not a big fan of Microsoft.
You're kidding ...Please expain more !!  :)

>Windows is
> bloated, wildly overpriced, unstable, vulnerable, and generally totally
> unsuited as an operating system (though the GUI itself is not bad).
> Having people pirate Windows doesn't disturb me in the slightest -- 
> Microsoft has enough money.
So if you develop as product or tool or patent in the future, that make you
$$'s everytime someone 'clicks', you would have no problem with people doing
whatever they can to slow that revenue stream?

> They could start the process of justifying
> their enormous costs by actually innovating once in a while...
>
> For the cost of XP Pro alone in the stores, I could buy a Mac Mini or
> build an entire Linux PC.
>
> Ah, the joys of having a monopoly...
It is the joys of having a monopoly or the responsiblity of have the most
widely accepted platform in America?
Remember what Apple did with their 'most widely accepted and used platform'
in the early 80's They said "Screw 'em' Make 'em upgrade the platform and
the programs or they are SOL!. And oh, by the way we are the 'sole source'
for both, and we police the dealers and control the price".

Microsoft cannot make 'revolutionary' change due to the widespread
acceptance of the platform. All they can do is 'evolutionary' change! Could
you imagine the outcty for example, if support for DOS was dropped? or
16-bit compatiblity mode. Microsoft tries to be the all for all.. Apple is
take it or leave it.. We are the arrogant ones!

As for the 'cost', Yes if someone naiively goes into a store and buys a
'fully' priced copy of XP Pro that is thier problem... There are much easier
and cheaper and LEGAL ways to buy the upgrade and also buy acquire a
LEGITIMATE copy of an operating system that entitles you to it.

I am NOT a Microsoft Basher...
I tip the other way..... I am more anti-UNIX... Why? I think U N I X should
be pronounce UNIQUE, every implementation of it is UNIQUE and quirky!

For the MAJORITY of HOME users out there...a Microsoft-based solution is the
best choice.....
I am not talking about those who can take apart a PC and put it back
together...
I am talking about the majority out there...
There need something fairly well developed and integrated...



From driehuis.fcnzpbc2005 at playbeing.com  Mon Jan 31 03:52:08 2005
From: driehuis.fcnzpbc2005 at playbeing.com (Bert Driehuis)
Date: Sun Jan 30 21:55:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
In-Reply-To: <ctjfrk$a2u$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ctjfrk$a2u$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <ctk6hc$onf$1@news.spamcop.net>

Joe Gill wrote:

> For the MAJORITY of HOME users out there...a Microsoft-based solution is the
> best choice.....
> I am not talking about those who can take apart a PC and put it back
> together...
> I am talking about the majority out there...
> There need something fairly well developed and integrated...

You're right. Most users need a Mac.

I'm consistently underwhelmed with the user friendliness of Windows. The 
fact that most Windows users have a sense of achievement doing simple 
tasks tells more about their expectations than it does about Windows.

I will not stand for blind bashing of Windows either, but the major sins 
against software engineering principles, not to mention lack of quality 
control and being heavy on legal do deserve criticism.

I own and operate three PC's at home, two of which are licensed to run 
Windows (all of them run FreeBSD; I only use Windows for Flight 
Simulator and Train Simulator). Buying a license to Windows is not fun, 
and the expense is just a minor inconvenience compared to the legal 
hassle. Microsoft has been successful in ruining the experience of 
taking your freshly acquired software home to unwrap and install it.

Why, if I paid for seperate copies of Win2K and WinXP should I be 
disallowed to swap those licenses between my PCs? Check out the license 
conditions, I'd need to buy another two copies to do so. Exercise: write 
an essay of less than 500 words to explain to John Doe why owning a 
license to Windows does not imply a Right To Use.

You do read the EULAs, don't you? I cannot legally burn the bug fixes 
for XP (you know, that fix bugs XP shouldn't have shipped with in the 
first place) on a CD-ROM and install them on a friends computer. I've 
read the license and I am aware that it specifically forbids this case, 
so I had to tell him to download them over his 56k modem, or obtain 
Microsofts permission to obtain them from me.

And that merely scratches the surface of licensing.

There really is something wrong if buying a software product is no 
longer fun. Think about it.
From ric.gates at bigsleep.org  Mon Jan 31 02:53:14 2005
From: ric.gates at bigsleep.org (Blammo)
Date: Sun Jan 30 21:55:23 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ctjfrk$a2u$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Xns95EEC04217746blammo@216.154.195.61>

On 30 Jan 2005 Joe Gill entered spamcop.geeks and left
news:ctjfrk$a2u$1@news.spamcop.net: 

> Microsoft cannot make 'revolutionary' change due to the widespread
> acceptance of the platform. All they can do is 'evolutionary' change!
> Could you imagine the outcty for example, if support for DOS was
> dropped? or 16-bit compatiblity mode. Microsoft tries to be the all
> for all.. Apple is take it or leave it.. We are the arrogant ones!
> 

Jeeze, where have you been? DOS was dropped long ago. Oh, I know you are 
going to claim "it's supported", but the fact is DOS hasn't worked since 
Windows 95. As far as I can tell, MSDOS never has worked in Windows NT.
I hear a lot of bitching about 16-bit apps that don't work in XP.

I doubt it has anything to do with the public, but rather how much flack 
they get from developers. MS wanted to drop 16-bit and DOS compatibility 
long ago, but the developers didn't want the expense of updating 
everything.

Apple has fewer developers to deal with, and probably think their customers 
have lots of money and want the best. Now that they have Darwin, developing 
for the OS shouldn't be an issue.

No support is probably better than partial support. If they can't take the 
time to get all the DOS commands to work properly (virtually), then why 
bother with it at all? They took a big risk releasing XP with it's half-ass 
"Windows 98 compatibilty mode", and apparently didn't give developers 
enough information in advance to update their drivers.

Windows is no easier on the user than any other OS, it's the developers 
that make it easy. Say you just want to browse the web and read eMail/ 
newsgroups (which is mostly what people want), if you can use Mozilla/ 
Firefox/ Thunderbird/ Opera, the OS makes no difference.

-- 
| Ric
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Sun Jan 30 20:01:57 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Sun Jan 30 23:14:18 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ctjfrk$a2u$1@news.spamcop.net> <ctk6hc$onf$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-1C97EF.20015730012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <ctk6hc$onf$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 Bert Driehuis <driehuis.fcnzpbc2005@playbeing.com> wrote:

> You're right. Most users need a Mac.

Hear, hear.

> I'm consistently underwhelmed with the user friendliness of Windows. The 
> fact that most Windows users have a sense of achievement doing simple 
> tasks tells more about their expectations than it does about Windows.

Indeed. While I admit, Windows and the Mac OS have several distinct 
advantages over each other (there's several on both sides, but neither 
-- IMHO -- makes one far superior to the other).

I've found that Windows XP is actually pretty decent, for a Microsoft 
product in terms of interface. The "Activation" and other silly nonsense 
is hugely annoying, but the interface isn't that bad. It's different 
from the Mac OS, which I'm used to, but those are mostly details.

> I will not stand for blind bashing of Windows either, but the major sins 
> against software engineering principles, not to mention lack of quality 
> control and being heavy on legal do deserve criticism.

Agreed.

> There really is something wrong if buying a software product is no 
> longer fun. Think about it.

Indeed.

Unfortunately for the computing world, there's a few big "givens":
1) Mac OS X -- an excellent, extremely powerful system -- runs only on 
Apple hardware, which is quite a bit more expensive than "generic" PC 
hardware. This reduces its availability to the average business or home 
user, as they already have hardware...why buy new stuff if what they 
have works?
2) Microsoft's market dominance is enormous. Like it or not, they're the 
"standard" for end-user GUI environments.
3) For all it's advantages, Linux is not a "ready for primetime" 
end-user OS. Yes, many use it as a desktop OS, but it doesn't have the 
out-of-box "it just works" that Windows or the Mac OS have.[1]

Due to these conditions, Microsoft is left with practically no real 
competition in the desktop environment. Apple doesn't have the critical 
mass to release OS X for x86, as it would decimate their hardware sales 
(and would likely cause the company to become highly unstable 
financially). Now, if Apple's iPod sales were to be enough to support 
the company financially, I could see the lessening the role of their 
hardware department and focusing on their OS-and-other-products 
department. If Mac OS could be installed on x86 machines and co-exist on 
a dual-boot PC with Windows, I think that it would be widely accepted.

Alas, it seems that nothing is going to change significantly in this 
arena for the next few years. If Linux can make itself user-friendly 
enough to successfully compete in the desktop PC market, that would be a 
huge boon.

[1] When I built my PC, I simply inserted the Windows XP disk, 
restarted, installed it, and It Just Worked(tm). Same with the Mac OS on 
my G5. Installing Linux (first I tried Fedora Core 3, FreeBSD, and 
finally settled on Debian) was a multi-day, multi-CD-R-writing, 
much-hair-pulling experience. The tinkering necessary to just get a GUI 
(and have Debian play nice with my graphics card) was completely beyond 
the realm of your average home user.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From borgholio at storymind.com  Sun Jan 30 22:24:14 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Mon Jan 31 01:25:13 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
In-Reply-To: <pete+usenet-1C97EF.20015730012005@news.cesmail.net>
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ctjfrk$a2u$1@news.spamcop.net> <ctk6hc$onf$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-1C97EF.20015730012005@news.cesmail.net>
Message-ID: <ctkisr$366$1@news.spamcop.net>

Pete Stephenson wrote:
> In article <ctk6hc$onf$1@news.spamcop.net>,

As someone who has been a Windows whore my whole life, I can safely say that 
it's all about convenience.  When it came time to upgrade from Windows ME 
(which is crappy even by Microsoft's standards), I honestly considered other 
options...mainly Macintosh and some flavor of Linux.  To put it simply, I 
did not want to spend several hundred dollars on a whole new computer to run 
Mac OS, and several hundred more to get Mac version of the software I'm 
already familiar with.  As for Linux, Pete put it perfectly when he 
described how much of a pain in the ass it is to get it to work.  If this 
was simply a hobby computer, I may have Linux on it as we speak.  However, I 
also use this computer for communication and business, and I cannot afford 
to spend days tinkering with it.  Installing XP was amazingly painless, and 
was (almost) as easy as installing MS-DOS 6.22 way back when.

I'm not covering for Microsoft, so don't assume that I like them.  Quite the 
contrary, I hate their business model.  Windows is a poor quality OS 
compared to some of the alternatives out there, and their EULA is pure shit. 
  I own one copy of XP, and I flat out REFUSE to buy additional copies for 
every computer in my house.  It should be a per-user license, rather than 
per-computer license.  However, it was very easy (compared to Linux), and 
very inexpensive (compared to Macs) to get it up and running on my system.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Mon Jan 31 01:31:23 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Mon Jan 31 04:35:26 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Security frustration...
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-52E868.01312331012005@news.cesmail.net>

Hurricane Electric's incoming mail service is somewhat annoying -- it 
only supports POP3, not IMAP. Additionally, it doesn't support APOP or 
POP-over-SSL.

I don't really feel comfortable sending my password in the clear, and 
would prefer not sending my email in the clear (at least until it gets 
to the outbound mail server).

As such, I have a POP/SMTP-over-SSH tunnel set up to the server that my 
site lives on. It works pretty well, but requires that I have the tunnel 
set up, which I sometimes forget to do, and which sometimes times out 
after being connected for several hours.

I emailed them and requested these features, and the support guy said 
that his superior said that they were not interested in adding those 
features to the servers anytime soon.

Perhaps I'm not fully understanding the magnitude of this, but most 
servers support, by default, APOP. With trivial configuration changes, 
they can support SSL -- already all accounts on the server support SSL 
for websites, why not for email? It seems to be a fairly trivial thing, 
and something that would have the potential for increasing network 
security by not having passwords transmitted in the clear.

Sonic.net's outgoing mail servers support SSL, so I'm considering 
switching over to them, but as long as I need to SSH into HE to collect 
mail (I won't send the password in the clear, so SSH is really the only 
option), I might as well use their outgoing mail service as well (it has 
the advantage of concealing the actual source of the mail -- their SMTP 
server gets it from "localhost", so it adds some modicum of privacy).

I'm amazed that a major webhosting/network provider isn't even 
considering adding rudimentary security to their service offering.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
From joegill at removethis  Mon Jan 31 11:38:20 2005
From: joegill at removethis (Joe Gill)
Date: Mon Jan 31 11:45:06 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ctjfrk$a2u$1@news.spamcop.net> <Xns95EEC04217746blammo@216.154.195.61>
Message-ID: <ctln79$mr2$1@news.spamcop.net>


"Blammo" <ric.gates@bigsleep.org> wrote in message
news:Xns95EEC04217746blammo@216.154.195.61...
> On 30 Jan 2005 Joe Gill entered spamcop.geeks and left
> news:ctjfrk$a2u$1@news.spamcop.net:
>
> > Microsoft cannot make 'revolutionary' change due to the widespread
> > acceptance of the platform. All they can do is 'evolutionary' change!
> > Could you imagine the outcty for example, if support for DOS was
> > dropped? or 16-bit compatiblity mode. Microsoft tries to be the all
> > for all.. Apple is take it or leave it.. We are the arrogant ones!
> >
>
> Jeeze, where have you been? DOS was dropped long ago. Oh, I know you are
> going to claim "it's supported", but the fact is DOS hasn't worked since
> Windows 95. As far as I can tell, MSDOS never has worked in Windows NT.
> I hear a lot of bitching about 16-bit apps that don't work in XP.
>
> I doubt it has anything to do with the public, but rather how much flack
> they get from developers. MS wanted to drop 16-bit and DOS compatibility
> long ago, but the developers didn't want the expense of updating
> everything.

OK.. OK.. that is what I meant... The CMD prompt. 16-bit support and DOS
compatibility...

> Apple has fewer developers to deal with, and probably think their
customers
> have lots of money and want the best. Now that they have Darwin,
developing
> for the OS shouldn't be an issue.
>
> No support is probably better than partial support. If they can't take the
> time to get all the DOS commands to work properly (virtually), then why
> bother with it at all? They took a big risk releasing XP with it's
half-ass
> "Windows 98 compatibilty mode", and apparently didn't give developers
> enough information in advance to update their drivers.

Better than what APPLE did(said) on II to MAC.... "Sorry sucker!"

> Windows is no easier on the user than any other OS, it's the developers
> that make it easy. Say you just want to browse the web and read eMail/
> newsgroups (which is mostly what people want), if you can use Mozilla/
> Firefox/ Thunderbird/ Opera, the OS makes no difference.
>
> -- 
> | Ric

My point is Microsoft has a large imbedded 'base' to consider, where the
latest 'Heinz 57' variety of Linux does not..
If someone want a machine and an operating system for 'their world' and had
the 'time' to work with it, Linux IS the "greatest thing since sliced
bread".

For the majority of the market space... moving towards 'plug 'n play', and
'dumbing' everything down, and a common accepted standard....You just have
to look around and see what's there...... I am not into 'rowing against the
wind'...

I guess it's just my feeling that if all this energy and venom (Not
necessarily in this thread.. industry in general..) would be directed in
EXPOILTING the technology DELIVERED and BOMARDING MS with known holes, we
would could see
1) Solutions from the USER community to problems like SPAM, (above and
beyond blacklisting and reporting) and FIREWALLS
2) Innovative usages of the technology to MAKE MONEY for the individuals
from the technology!
3) A stronger Microsoft platform...

I guess I feel that ANY time there is a MARKET leader ... everyone wants to
throw stones.... rather than BUILD upon what is there...


From nobody at nowhere.invalid  Mon Jan 31 23:37:05 2005
From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (Steven Maesslein)
Date: Mon Jan 31 17:40:04 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: OpenOffice Question
References: <ozchzhq02-5542CF.10390431012005@frylock.local>
Message-ID: <slrncvtcoh.qg.nobody@127.0.0.1>

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:39:09 -0500, David Dean coughed into
spamcop.geeks and left this in
<ozchzhq02-5542CF.10390431012005@frylock.local>:

>    I recently sent someone a document I created with Microsoft Word for 
> mac. They had trouble opening it with Open Office on a Windows machine. 
> ISTR that Microsoft had coded the mac version to write document files 
> exactly the same way that the windows version did. Can anyone think of 
> why there was trouble?

Because OOo guys have to guess exactly how a M$-Turd document is made 
up. The specifications of that format are closely guarded secrets of 
Micro$hit's.

While they usually do a good job of it, there are some areas of the 
subject that they just won't be able to grok better without inside 
information into the workings of M$-Turd, and they're not going to get 
that legally.

So, yes, it is a problem with OOo, but filing a bug report probably 
won't do any good since the people are working blindfolded and it's 
already a miracle that OOo can do what it does.

Now read this: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

-- 
Steve

Why do people pay to go up tall buildings and then put money in
binoculars to look down at things on the ground?
From skiwi at spamcop.net  Mon Jan 31 20:05:43 2005
From: skiwi at spamcop.net (sk1w1)
Date: Mon Jan 31 23:10:03 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Spamcop Seti team update
In-Reply-To: <crksk6$fqm$1@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crksk6$fqm$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <ctmv6o$k4g$2@news.spamcop.net>

Borgholio wrote:
> Just about to break the 200,000 credit mark with 7 members and still 
> going strong!  I updated the team from "United States" to 
> "International" because I just remembered that Marj is Dutch.  :)  
> Seeing as how Seti@home is set to shut down within the next few months, 
> anybody who has not yet converted to Seti@home 2 should do so now while 
> the getting is good.

stumbled across this page today (don't ask how!) - pretty interesting 
for my stats, I am guesisng everyone's are there...

http://www.boinc.dk/index.php?page=user_statistics&project=sah&userid=7508
From borgholio at storymind.com  Mon Jan 31 22:14:01 2005
From: borgholio at storymind.com (Borgholio)
Date: Tue Feb  1 01:15:13 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Spamcop Seti team update
In-Reply-To: <ctmv6o$k4g$2@news.spamcop.net>
References: <crksk6$fqm$1@news.spamcop.net> <ctmv6o$k4g$2@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <ctn6n7$q61$1@news.spamcop.net>

sk1w1 wrote:
> Borgholio wrote:
> 
>> Just about to break the 200,000 credit mark with 7 members and still 
>> going strong!  I updated the team from "United States" to 
>> "International" because I just remembered that Marj is Dutch.  :)  
>> Seeing as how Seti@home is set to shut down within the next few 
>> months, anybody who has not yet converted to Seti@home 2 should do so 
>> now while the getting is good.
> 
> 
> stumbled across this page today (don't ask how!) - pretty interesting 
> for my stats, I am guesisng everyone's are there...
> 
> http://www.boinc.dk/index.php?page=user_statistics&project=sah&userid=7508

Yeah, that site is mainly for people who run multiple BOINC projects in 
addition to Seti@home.  It's quite useful, actually.
From pete+usenet at heypete.com  Mon Jan 31 23:57:08 2005
From: pete+usenet at heypete.com (Pete Stephenson)
Date: Tue Feb  1 03:07:29 2005
Subject: [SpamCop-Geeks] Re: Are you running a  GENUINE copy of WINDOWS?
References: <ct9r27$9rb$1@news.spamcop.net>
	<pete+usenet-C61F76.20512726012005@news.cesmail.net>
	<ctjfrk$a2u$1@news.spamcop.net> <Xns95EEC04217746blammo@216.154.195.61>
	<ctln79$mr2$1@news.spamcop.net> <ctmmlv$efb$1@news.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <pete+usenet-679024.23570831012005@news.cesmail.net>

In article <ctmmlv$efb$1@news.spamcop.net>,
 Bert Driehuis <driehuis.fcnzpbc2005@playbeing.com> wrote:

> My principles prevent me from running illegal software, so I paid 
> retail for my Win2K and XP licenses so that both my PC's are legal 
> (the previous owner of my laptop already paid for XP, but the license 
> is not transferrable as you know, so he can no longer use the license 
> he paid for and neither can I -- is there anything wrong with that 
> picture?).

Yikes. I paid for the "academic" version of WinXP Professional at my 
college bookstore. In the retail box, it was $100. In a little sleeve 
with the product ID on the pack with a pamphlet describing the Microsoft 
education license (yes, it's legal) was only $60. I forked over the $60.

Sometimes being a student has its advantages. :)

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com